On-Set in Extreme Environments with Jörundur Rafn Arnarson | TVAP EP42

Jörundur Rafn Arnarson  returns after exchanging the frozen mountains of Iceland for the Deserts for his recent VFX Supervisor role on "Rise of The Witches".

We talk about how extreme environments influence filmmakers, the route from Compositing to VFX Supervision, "bad CGI", helicopters and much much more.

With a Supervisor whose body of work ranges from Icelandic indie films to Cannes Palm D'Or, Triangle of Sadness to Prehistoric Planet to franchise blockbusters Dr Strange - Multiverse of Madness and Game of Thrones, You won't want to miss this one!

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#vfxpodcast #compositing #motioncapture 

00:03:43 : Triangle of Sadness
00:13:42 : The most sought after commodity on-set
00:16:03 : The mindset of extreme environments
00:23:15 : RIse of The Witches - a Saudi Arabian epic
00:28:07 : Dr Strange and Prehistoric Planet
00:36:25 : Issues I have with CG
00:45:45 : Guiding big and small budgets
00:49:17 : I will always cut out VFX if I can
00:53:04 : "Bad CGI"
01:26:04 : Advice for filmmakers using VFX for the first time.

Rendered: 2022-10-01 15:10:27
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Transcript

0:00

welcome back in the show Yuri and yeah it's good to have you back thank you thank you for inviting me back[Music] he said too feels like a very long time ago and just looking back at it like you gave us appreciate an interesting insight about your bfx journey as a compositor and see becoming an obsessed supervisor I say yeah just excited to just have you back to see yeah what you've been up to and just where you've been on your travels work so yeah yeah tell us a bit about yeah where you've been since we last had you on a podcast and maybe what shows you've been working on well I'm flattered to be be back and congratulations with the success of the podcast yeah it's been a year but it feels like a couple of years you know it's been so busy you know I have so many things that happened since then um so um yeah I've had mostly been really really busy onset of course which has been my specialty I've I've been doing a couple of projects in Iceland um but my by far my biggest project project was now this summer in Saudi Arabia where we've where I was ended up shooting for two months in the desert in Saudi Arabia which was once in a lifetime for sure really difficult but really amazing as well um and um but now I'm going into a really heavy post winter uh fall and and uh you know I'm trying to um ramp up my my small company and and take on more post work uh but as you guys know the industry in general is really busy so finding the right people at the right time is quite tricky it's always been tricky but it's certainly not easier at this moment in time so uh in terms of the actual projects I mean I've been doing a couple of uh Icelandic projects I'm now working on a Icelandic movie called The Fearless Flyers which is a director I've been working now this is my third movie with him um and so this these are kind of like um small Indie festival type movies which I've done a lot of here in Iceland which has kind of been my uh bread and butter a lot and a way for me to keep connected into the uh Icelandic Community as well because nowadays mostly my main work comes from uh big International Productions basically uh um but but this this kind of work is I can still kind of use my skills and and tools and not really give a discount on on the quality as such but more give a discount on on on the actual price in form of guiding them into sensible um Solutions and avoiding the most expensive pitfalls and so on you know and just yeah trying to help them use their budget in the best possible way and I love doing that and just in general I want to try and stay connected to the Icelandic Film Community which is by the way extremely busy as well with Hollywood and Netflix stuff and all of this you know so uh um but yeah and then then of course I I don't remember if I told you last time but um two of my Productions from last year actually were very successful uh this year they came out one of them the most notable was uh triangle of sadness Russian capitalism and an American Communist I'm on a 250 million dollar luxury switch over shooting in Sweden which is the new uh Ruben Islam movie which ended up winning the uh Goldman golden uh the Palm doors at can at the camp Festival um which was amazing great you know I kind of I really kind of knew it when I was watching uh the the monitor you know it was so special and unique and you kind of know how this this is gonna have a big impact for sure so uh I wasn't surprised when it won um but then another movie which I did in Jordan um last summer also competed in that same uh in Camp so so that was quite quite amazing to have two movies which you've been on set supervisor on competing against each other and and what many people consider the most prestigious uh award you know and and um and typical fashion for me I I was invited to both the both the parties and couldn't go because I was shooting in in Saudi Arabia you know so uh that's of course yeah how it goes to send anyone else did you get your wife well yes actually my my Danish college so I have a kind of a sister company in Copenhagen called Copenhagen Visual and they they did go and and did uh have some uh and meet some people and have some fun you know so but next year I will go if I have something competing next year I will go for sure I promised the wife so uh I I don't think everyone should watch the first um first interview did but just to give a very quick like two seconds to 30 second rundown of what what we covered you um started as a composite although actually you've done some 3D before compositing yes and worked at frame store London and you began working on set quite um after a sort of number of years and you have been using helicopters you filmed their backgrounds for season five of Game of Thrones you go into a lot of depth in that in there yeah so I won't recap it now no no but um you also talk about um helicopters versus drones the fact that if you go with a drone it seems easier and cheaper but then you need transport for yourself exactly Iceland is quite big and uh in certain parts are inaccessible so if you have yeah as a composite I would say and I think Kofi is a match mover that helicopter footage is a lot easier to work with than Drone footage as well just because you've got better cameras and it's a little bit more stable yeah exactly once you've got a gimbal on there it's it's the best gimbals in the world you you're dealing with so yeah um yeah yeah I would say by the way I mean it's it's basically correct mostly in terms of Game of Thrones the big thing I did for them was that I did a lot of scanning but I did also Shield plates with them but but the where I was completely on my own and where I kind of was kind of the like my own boss and basically me and me and the the heads of Game of Thrones Joe Powers team kind of developed the workflow as we went along from season five and onwards and um that basically more often than not involved me and maybe the producer the Icelandic producer but a lot of the time just me and and I'm uh quite unique pilot here in Iceland called the Young castanson or called John Spade which means John the blade which is an egg name he has because he flies so close to the mountains that the plates uh touched the mountains so um so that says also maybe a little bit of how how he flies but but the this pilot he knows all of the Icelandic uh Highlands like the back of his hand you know so yeah that's also been a big part of why um the helicopter was always kind of the best option apart from the stuff you already mentioned um usually what we did you know when uh when kind of our workflow had had kind of evolved it was usually Game of Thrones found maybe four Targets on Google Maps and Instagram and whatever and and and just compiled a lot of reference in terms of where it's situated and how it's supposed to look and we got that and we looked at it and then that might be four targets usually an F4 or five at most and then we took the helicopter for the whole day and rented it for the whole day and we usually got those Targets in within the first two three hours which meant that we had more than half of the time left which meant that we just went hunting for for for good stuff you know and and you owned that pilot he always like no matter whatever you're in in Iceland you know you can say hey yo and I need some really really nice vertical drops you know maybe with the waterfall or something and it'd be like ah yeah this one over there let's go over there you know so so it's really really convenient and a lot of fun to work like that and um and yeah so so so that was kind of a big Kickstart to a lot of my onset stuff as well was was um that plus just the need in general here in Iceland has been growing not only for the Icelandic production that's not not the biggest thing it's more the the foreign production that common shield in Iceland you know it's the need is is growing steadily in terms of onset uh support you know because usually they come with their own team but but the team is now more and more on demand just as we are all on demand they're everywhere in the effects these days it seems like and and covet definitely uh kind of put a completely new kind of um angle into the whole thing I mean at the start of covet nobody could go anywhere so Iceland had a the best status in the world as the best covet country so I could go when my Swedish colleagues or Danish colleagues couldn't go so they asked me to go the people that knew me you know so I went to do it their jobs in various places in Europe and and so on and then when Iceland opened up for shooting a lot of the uh visil facts teams were were kept back or or at the most really just one guy like them like one supervisor instead of you know normally it might have been five to ten people that came along you know and a full team you know so uh for these Bigger Productions so then people started using uh us much more locally or I mean they did that before but then they kind of started relying on us really crucially you know and and it turned out pretty well we didn't we didn't screw it up basically you know and and now it's it's the the kind of their first choice now really in Iceland is to try and get whatever locals they can to to work with them now you know so which is great you know the only problem is we we were too few really so uh Iceland's not a big Mason we're only 360 000 and and that's not all VFX people I can tell you that so um yeah so so we're we're struggling with the same kind of uh man issues that I'm I'm sure you guys are familiar with in your own work so uh yeah it's a problem that's the same thing that I think is a recurring theme in everyone's career is that you get a lot of opportunities just from circumstances like yeah and the people or you've got a lockdown and it's just a matter of when that happens just doing a good job that exactly making them not regret it exactly I mean that that is like if I if somebody had told me as a young guy like I've said this before like my best advice to anybody young getting and getting into anything really but especially in our business I would just say like work out be honest and never give up if you do those things it will just accumulate you know your hard work will be be noticed and the honesty will be appreciated and and you'll you know you'll go from one project they noticed all your good qualities now you're in they won't be taking a risk on anybody unknown now even though they might in theory be be a better compositor on paper or whatever if they know what they're getting with you and you and in every other facet you know you're a nice person you're honest person and so on so we will will go with what we know you know rather than go into the uh on show and this is especially true when it comes to Onset and stuff like that because really the the most uh sort of the commodity when it comes to shooting or onset is is certainty you know so you can even you could tell them I can sell you something that's gonna be 70 of our Max potential in terms of quality but I can guarantee you can get that they will take the 70 percent you know like nine out of ten times they'll go for the 17 simply to have that guarantee and to be able to start planning around uh those 70 you know now they can put other different work uh through you know and get that going you know so so when when your answer and this is something that is very difficult to understand often when you're only on the post side is how many we how many Corks And Wheels need to fit together and come together in a perfect timing you know for everything to work so um in that regard um it's um it sounds weird that they wouldn't go for top draw every time but but certainty is something that that's almost impossible to find on set and uh so so whatever certainty you can supply which I can't Supply certainty but what I do Supply the clients especially those who've worked with me before know that I'll come in and I'll just say okay I don't know how but we'll find a way you know I have a certain skill set I've been here before and and um you know I kind of understand the environment and and there's only so many ways that we really can do this successfully in terms of money Logistics safety and so on you know so let's just go into the environment and let's see see uh what we can do you know and this is maybe the the area where I'm starting to if I have to praise myself this is probably one of my biggest strengths is to have a very fluid situation and and be able to come up with a plan uh in the moment you know so um that certainly something you get that's what you get in extreme environments like in Iceland and like for example in the desert where I was in in Saudi Arabia I really felt my Icelandic background was really helping me up there you know um I think Iceland didn't prepare me for the uh heat but but a lot of other things that they perform also yeah it's a fascinating that you said it I being from Iceland prepared yeah yeah yeah it sounds insane yeah it sounds completely insane but I'll tell you you know because when you're in the desert it's like these huge wide expensive environments that you're working in you know and some directors in his mind he goes on a on a wrecking and say oh yeah I'll have have the extras out there and they'll be coming over the rates line and it's gonna look like Braveheart it's gonna be amazing and then you put them in there and you understand that it's 30 people in a in a 10 kilometer scene now you know and it's like nothing it's a drop you know and this is this is of course something that we understand all the time because we're fixing these kinds of issues in post you know but but this is often something that that goes wrong in in shooting or not goes wrong maybe it's not the right word but it's overestimated or or people are being a little bit too I was optimistic in this regard you know and and being Icelandic you we don't have a lot of forests so we have really big expansive Landscapes as well you know and when we're shooting on these uh big foreign Productions we're we're spending all day outside in the environment the sun here is actually quite brutal as you can see it's uh it's it's doing its thing you know so that you can easily get sunburned here pretty badly as well but but it's not warm that's that's correct that you've got that right but but instead it's windy and it's it's wet so um so that so it's a really harsh environment and in the desert it starts the extremely hot and like instead of finding cover for for for the rain you're finding cover for the Sun but and both places are kind of windy the the deserts kind of windy actually but not as windy as Iceland but but it's you you know the of course on the hottest day it was so windy where we were shooting that we couldn't put the tents up to make Cate for ourselves you know so we had to you know spend the whole day just standing in the sun you know and it was 47 degrees Celsius and hottest day of my life guys so uh that was a an experience for sure you know and the same happens in Iceland you can put the tens up because it's too windy and now you spent the whole day standing in the rain instead you know in a cold rain you know so so these kind of things and and that's one thing for me personally but what what it prepared me for is especially like English and and American Productions coming into these environment and it's full of people that are super skilled and like have 20 30 years experience and just know their their stuff and are used to just banging out shots and scenes you know every day and never letting anything stop them you know and then they come into these kinds of environments and the environment just said no no no no no no no it's not gonna happen you're not gonna be doing 20 shots a day you're going to be doing five shots a day or five scenes a day not maybe shot that would be awful but um so and that that's the same thing with Ian Iceland so I me and the locals the Saudis we were kind of we wanted quite a lot because I like this is exactly what we see in in Iceland all the time and here in Iceland we're trying one the foreign Productions they like if you're gonna try that it's all gonna blow away in the wind or whatever the same with the locals but they usually always try it once or twice and then they don't then they start listening you know they usually you know lose one day or or tenth or whatever and then they start losing that so that whole thing was very similar and really yeah I felt better prepared than than most westerners in that production when I came to these things yeah so because we're not just talking Comfort here are we no no no logistical issue yeah yeah exactly what your exercise can't stand yeah side of the hill and your equipment can't survive exactly exactly it's just like you know for me I will maybe sooner than than somebody that's used to working in England mainly or England in Ireland or something like that though and Spain uh you know I will maybe uh you know understand as soon as I go into an environment that shooting that written line is not gonna be possible because it means that we need to move this gear up there and and and you know having people you know we would have to place the camera over there and then we need a whole safety procedure for that and so on and of course producers understand that and and you know the the people that take care of these things but it's still like when you it's it's basically you know when you're when you're always in the in the woods looking for the wolf you know your eye gets trained to seeing the wolf you know and that's kind of how you know I see those things pretty quickly you know I can and I flank them and you know sometimes people listen to me sometimes they don't but it's also a very good thing for us and VFX understanding that I won't have that green screen so now I need to uh start talking to the director about like keeping a clear mat line or or you know this is gonna have to have Roto in it or could we maybe change the effect so we only have overlay instead of something going behind and stuff like that you know so so that really like interpreting a you know a snap moment in an environment to to what the consequences will mean down the line and post is something that that um you know I try to I try to do as best as I can for sure you know because you don't really don't really have in this environment especially don't have the time to to uh plan it out you know you really have to work on your experience you don't have the time to measure everything you don't like and so so you you really have to be comfortable with making those gut calls really and you know when it's comes to God it's usually bound to experience you know so uh yeah yeah so I suppose are you able to to tell us what shows so yeah so so this big uh big production we were doing in Saudi Arabia's uh TV show called rise of the witches and and just in general Saudi Arabia is going through so many changes really positive changes and I really I like that the country and the people and the the culture just blew me away it was amazing being there the locations guys this this is like there are absolutely amazing like the like Dune Dune doesn't have anything on us you know we we talk to locations easily you know and and let's see two and two if they can tell us now but it was really unbelievable in terms of photogenic uh locations but the production skull or the the series called the rise of the witches and it's kind of a fantasy based thing um which is based on uh uh some best-selling books in the Arab speaking World which you could compare them maybe a little bit to you could compare that book selling phenomenon maybe a little bit to Harry Potter but this is much more grown-up stuff this is much more hard stuff and I think in terms of the fantasy it's probably closer to Witcher or something like that there's a maybe a slight Game of Thrones element but it's much more about magic and and stuff like that and that those spokes are then um they're written by uh Osama bin Muslim who is a famous author there and uh and they are much more um based on their actual old uh folklore you know Arabic folklore before pre- Islam folklore basically so um which is a lot about Witchcraft and and and all kinds of magical uh stuff going on so that's basically you know there you you can see how that would you know invite a lot of VFX uh into the picture you know and and and that's definitely you know so we're dealing with set extensions we're dealing with doing various magic effects we're dealing with full City creatures um you know all kinds of uh City creatures uh um if there's any good Houdini artists who are interested in working on this I can contact me we need those uh for sure there's a lot of um there's a lot of matte paintings of course and you know so it's kind of in terms of uh what we're doing it's I wouldn't say the standard Suite but it's it's the full service basically you know so we're doing full uh story story uh full important characters and Story full CT characters that are important in the in the whole story and and then we're basically doing a lot of magic effects on in from these switches and and the Sorceress um and they're basically fights and and and and yeah doing so so it's and it's the biggest um TV series that's been um produced of uh it's a NPC which is the biggest uh Arab speaking uh producer that's financing and producing this and um then we have any uh yeah English producer called The Dominic Barlow and he's assembled a western I mean primarily English head of Department type crew you know so but but you know maybe you should say Western so there was a lot of Western experience in the head like most heads of departments were were westerners and um and then you know it was kind of mixed Western and and local in terms of uh uh filling the Departments um uh but yeah this uh this series is uh yeah by far the biggest production so far and the anticipation and then the uh excitement in the Arab uh world is is very big you know so uh yeah it's it's uh I'm I'm excited myself actually to be honest yeah so um yeah last last time we spoke to you he had been involved in yeah Dr Strange in the motivation and I think I think you were you were involved in Apple TV is prehistoric exactly yeah correct um yeah you're able to tell us a bit more about your involvement and maybe what to do that yeah I mean not too much more than I told you last time but I mean I now at least there is a name to to that PPC I think I mentioned it as a PVC production uh last time or but yeah I was working quite a lot with the BBC on uh prehistoric planet and actually most of the work that we did is yet to come out so um look forward to that um it was amazing working with NPC as well and like it was really I really loved working with them because these are like the best nature uh producers in the world basically and and they are proper proper old school uh old-school uh roughneck filmmakers you know it's tiny Cruise it's living quite rough you know and and it's it's very far from you know your normal big VFX uh show for sure you know and it's completely once again it's nature you know so it's it's literally I mean I I did quite a lot of work in the in the ocean you know so uh it's literally a very fluid situation when you're working working in that you know so um I hope to do more with them but it's not um there's it's not nothing is confirmed but I do think we we grew to mutually love each other through this production it's it was a very very uh yeah great production they were here in Iceland for quite quite quite a bit and you can see that in in the series in in uh I think it's the last episode of the second last episode where you where you got the Icelandic plates um and then I I work with them in more locations around the world um which was amazing uh to be honest Multiverse similar to what I said last last time and I mean the only thing I can add there once again is maybe a title and the fact that I haven't seen it myself and it didn't get the greatest reception but um um I hope my VFX at least came out all right um but um yeah I haven't seen it myself so okay um and then you were gonna say oh my question is I'm a compositor myself so yeah my question is when you're working on set um do you find that helps you especially when you maybe you're in a situation like you say where you have to say no we can't get this thing in camera that you're asking for compositing I mean I definitely think you like I would I would say the more I work the and the way I work like that's another thing when you're doing a lot of onset work you realize that there's a big difference between almost every supervisor we all kind of work in our own kind of way they're our best practices there are we all do our hdrs we're all Messier stuff and all of this you know but but in terms of how we approach it and also just in terms of how we engage with the with the rest of the group with the with the director with the producer now there's this complete difference in levels and and all of that so so um with annoys the rest of the crew a lot actually you know because once they get comfortable with one guy another guy comes in and it's different you know and you know once again if you can get some some uh certainty in film they'll take it all day long you know and so so opening up uncertainty again is never popular but but um I would definitely say for me more and more I would I wouldn't say I say it's probably on par so I would say if you want to be an onset supervisor and be prolific and and successful in that you need to be a very technical photographer for sure even if you have a data Wrangler for you to to just develop a a proper vocabulary and a proper kind of logic to to thinking it's basically understanding there's a lot you need to understand by understanding the camera the best and what you can do and can't do and what's right and what's wrong is is like number one in my my view and lighting is is a part of that but you could then maybe say if you go deep into the camera then you know Follow Follow That by going deep into light as well but but I would say of course which we all know post is very important having some experience or insight into post is uh very important there's a lot of brilliant Wranglers for example that that never have never done any posts you know but a really really good Wranglers they're really really good at measuring the stuff and getting the gear and doing everything to a t you know and to doing your hdrs and stuff like that but because they don't have that post experience that they're quite far from being able to make the calls they can make the calls as the last supervisor they did but but making the call and and being happy with it and being able to stand account for it yourself is something they don't they're not able to and they won't won't be be uh comfortable doing that you know so I think those Wranglers who want to go up to supervising they understand that and quickly you know join the post-production in some manner you know to start getting their insight into that so I would definitely I mean being being a compositor for me the the best supervisors are compositors that's really for me the best working supervisor in the world for my money if I have to put money on it is Paul Lampard from d-neck and uh the tune and the later on as a new one and stuff like that his approach is what I wish I could do every time if I had enough money and power if I was asked if yeah as influential and Powerful as him I would I would choose to do it that way if I had the good foresight of seeing it ahead of time like he's been doing um and I I definitely feel like in general compositing gives you an edge if that's your strong side as a supervisor because film is a photographic medium and compositing is a photographic medium but whether people I mean I know a lot of compositors don't do photography and and uh probably not even aware that what they're basically doing is really really fancy expose exposures and and stuff like that which we are now digitized and and can do anything with it really but it's based in in a photography Universe you know and and understanding that and having that as a fundament when you go go then onset is is a very strong way to approach it I mean at the same time you know if it's CT heavy Productions and stuff like that you have an ads in that when you're coming from 3D but for me I have I have issues with CT heavy stuff always you know I think CT should be uh Last Resort solution not because it's terrible or anything it's actually our most powerful tool but you know we should always try and photograph something it's only at the point where we can't photograph it we need and then we synthesize it from the ground up and the more we can then base that on real photography you know the more we can use photograph textures photogrammetry now axial rail scans rather than modeling and for me also I prefer motion capture to animation you know I'm all about realism in general and and then and you know so all my projects and where I'm enrolled it's always about getting as much realism as possible so I'm not discounting the the the amazing stuff that you do in animation as a performance you know but that when I'm working that's never what I'm going for I'm always just going for basically a capture so I can do a capture or I can ask animator to try and simulate a caption of course always I feel the the actual capture is going to be better and more realistic than the uh than the animation the the you know where you try to emulate uh the real motion you know so so I mean everything has strengthened and and and and weaknesses but I would definitely say um in my mind you walk into that set with with the strongest Swiss army knife as a senior composer uh you need to have all the other stuff you know you need to be you need to be another thing is you need to be good good a good people person you know you really need to be be kind of a not brave but at least on the front foot and engaging with people and and stuff like that and many supervisors are not then and they're they're they run into more problems than they have to uh for that I think so you know in many Productions I get so much credit and and um you know praise for for simply not being awkward to deal with you know I don't even have to do a good job you know I'm just fairly fairly normal and can can I get a joke and so on and and some people are usually very not not very scientific type guys you know and and then you get your really really clever scientific type 3D visual effects supervisor or something like that and these two guys you know you've got one that you know maybe even you know a lot of people in film are actually um uh what do you call it um have dyslexia and you know uh maybe ADHD you know whereas it you know for example with those kind of personality traits they become superpowers in the onset environment you know because it's actually that what you need you need to be able to to handle the pressure and and deal with risk and take so so so it's it's amazing to see how these people absolutely flourish in in the the onset environment you know and but then you know your Superstar your office Superstar now can really have a hard time you know because it's way too hot then it doesn't have the right clothes and then everybody's shouting and rests and you know because there's no time for fine courtesies and stuff like that you know so so people get understandably quite um uh kind of a jolted and jot by by the culture on set often you know and I I my advice would be just embrace it you know don't don't like yeah you might get a little bit brusty go the first couple of days but don't worry just get through that and and keep going like I said never give up just keep going and it'll be really fun after after the shop well you know so from your perspective your company you I mean if you want to end up supervising Europe you're definitely on a good good trajectory yeah I had a a question for you uh just I'm just curious just us like just being the man you are as with is so much experience I'm just wondering what criteria you look for when you're deciding which project to onboard I mean it used to be if they want me and and they'll and if they're likely to pay the bill you know but and now it's more I I mean I have to think Beyond myself but if I was just you know when we spoke the first or like maybe a year before the first time I was on so two years ago or something then I was much more one-man kind of thing you know I did crew up with Freelancers for post for the various posts the production projects but I could really I was very free you know I could jump onto any production and I still can't do that for the most part but I do I need to think a little bit more about about kind of servicing my office and my post-production and now I've got two staffers with me and so on you know so it's tiny still but it's still it's something that I'm building and it's something that needs to be cared for you know so um so now that's a little bit of a factor but in general my the biggest influence is simply if I want to go on the event adventure to be honest you know if I want to go to that place if I can if I think it's going to be you know really Adventures you know I that that's something I really Thrive up is is kind of a you know almost going into you know I usually call it Rambo mode you know it's kind of a you know you go on a mission and and you're you're kind of soldier like in in many ways you know uh in a light version maybe and also when you come back from these really big projects and and this is not bfx specific but for crew crew and general you kind of get a slight kind of a kind of a super super mild version of a pvsd SD or something because it's very difficult you know going from that almost survival type environment into just normality again you know and and especially if you think about our work you go from that kind of maybe crazy kind of you you the last week and you now have to do two weeks of shooting in one week because this and that was behind and and uh so now you just need to make like 10 new plants every day you know and just to try and get it in there and and then it's all over all of a sudden and then you go back to something that needs to be really stable and really thought about you know office environment and so on and in terms of my home life family you know kids that need their attention and stable stable parents and all of that you know and so it is quite tricky you know and and um me and my wife we've kind of worked out kind of a we try and take a decompression period you know maybe take a trip together or something after this one I spent two days in London met my best friend there and you know went out for dinner had some drinks went to the Chelsea Tottenham game the day the next day and you know just you know to try and kind of just do something completely other than work and other than your home life and then come back and and try and be normal there so yeah but I would say the adventure is still the biggest factor and yeah yeah that's probably why why I will be in London starting January next so that's for the adventure as well so we'll have to catch up in London we'll have to do it on location live episode yes that would be cool and maybe maybe uh on location uh paint as well who knows that sounds good yeah definitely um yeah one thing you mentioned because you started talking early on and then obviously we went on noise talk about a lot of different things but um you're talking about Icelandic Productions I'm talking about guiding them with budget so obviously you work with very big budgets and very small budgets yeah I just hope to talk about how you uh maybe help guide your clients in in this in this way filmmakers with what they have to get the the art they want yeah exactly that I mean that that's the key word you you mentioned the get the ark that they want that's exactly the key word in terms of the big budgets usually when I'm working with the very big budgets I am kind of I'm working on there's another show supervisor and they have kind of settled or take care of those and I just get my my parameters to work with and I go out and execute that basically uh this last one was a little bit different we kind of shared that that kind of a burden when it came came in to shooting um but um uh I would I would definitely um say that the key keyword you you put in there is that that Arc you know it's so what you need to do as a supervisor is you need to be really interested in storytelling and filmmaking and understanding what what the um what what the director or the the screenwriter is trying to do you know it's in terms of telling the story and I remember I can give you an example an Icelandic director was like asking me all kinds of really technical uh questions about um you know face swapping and face tracking and stuff like that and and I knew that you know he he wouldn't be able to he would never have have a budget that would make it viable this is for for the main character in in the in the story uh or sorry it was the children of the main character they had to shoot for some reason uh 16 hours a day and because they had to do day and night and all kinds of stuff and when you're working with children small children that's not really an option you know so and he went back and forth and thought about this and I like and I basically said have you think the thing I thought about making a casting call for twins you know and trying to cast some twins and you're like oh yeah of course Twins then yeah yeah that could work you know and so that became the way they wanted to approach it I just you know I just uh stuffed myself for a couple of million isk or something in terms of work you know that I'm not getting now but I don't care about that and I know working with these producers and just in general that if you approach things like that and you're in general likable engage with people and you and you and and you you approach their script and their project as as as yours really how can I get it done you know with for whatever means and I I really never put a thought into what it means he can economically for me to make this call or the other call you know because I will almost always cut out the effects if I can like my my thing is always can we get it in camera is it possible to do something to get it in camera can we get a prosthetic or can we get costume to do like this or whatever and so if that's an option and it's going to look good in camera then I'll always go for that rather than create work for myself um this is something that's actually a bit of a problem in our industry when it comes to the CT heavy stuff you know because you need to build such enormous monsters around CT production that you know when you start to need to have to be able able to feed those monsters and I've seen some very dodgy calls being made Through The Years you know for for City you know where I felt like it was simply basically you know being done to get some work in you know where it was unnecessary in my view you know and bad news about it um but yeah people need to answer for that themselves you know the way I I approach it is exactly this what's the art what what would be cool what what how the how's this director I know this directly he like likes it kind of understated you know but if we do like this and I just and I go in and I'm really really uh uh Unapologetic and unshy about talking to them as almost as as if I was writing the script with them or whatever you know I'll be just as uh Curious and and just as a probing in terms of what they can do as they will be towards me you know and and so far it's been really well received you know I really like of most often producers and directors absolutely love that you know they they really appreciate that first of all you're showing them that you're really reading the stuff not just read quickly reading it and finding where where your V effect is going to be but you're really reading it you're understanding the meme meaning you understand the the the emotional implications that are happening now in this scene you know so so so you can even go to completely different visuals but because you understand that that's gonna translate into the same emotional response you can then suggest something that's very far from the original idea you know and there's something like I I do you know meddle around with with stories myself and stuff like that and and I love it and I love I love I'm always super curious about all the other departments and stuff like that so so this is the filmmaker part and unfortunately many VFX soups are not big on the filmmaker part you know but I would say most VFX people get into VFX because they also love film you know and I would say it's really really important that you keep cultivating that don't get too too inside baseball with the VFX only keep go you know keep your original love of the whole medium you know watch a lot of movies and learn about the other departments and and yeah you know don't never be shy of going outside of your your VFX box you know so um yeah do you think that sometimes when you get this discourse about like bad CGI sometimes it's not even the technical quality of the the VFX I mean sometimes it is yeah cats the emotional engagement yeah there because once people are not interested in the story then you start picking at everything exactly the costumes you pick up that you know you pick up the casting all the bits and yeah DJI and VFX is an easy target in that sense because when they stop when you've moved when the where when your storytelling is wrong that just makes all our work look bad exactly I think I mean I I don't think this is my pet peeve this is this is the by far the the biggest reason like I can give you an example like how many uh driving shots have you seen even lately and just in general you know where it's clearly a green screen car and and it's a terrible shot you know I've seen so many you know and rarely do I have an issue with the actual keying which people always mention if if the if that's uh the issue is sure you can find some where there's a horrible key but usually the key is fine the issue is the staging the camera position the camera behavior and more often than not it's Overexposed in in the uh or it's like too well lit in the cabin you know you don't like you should have complete blackness in the cap and weather Seattle you shouldn't have have ambient light go bouncing around there or you should have it completely Overexposed outside these kind of this kind of just basic uh kind of um understanding of camera camera physics you know and and it's eluded most of the like at too much of VFX for many years but that's that's one issue that's so so that issue is a terrible green screenshot but it's really nothing to do with the actual pulling the key and trying to integrate it all of the mistakes were made from how it was shot basically and of course that falls on the supervisor for sure um but then you then you do like um and you do a huge pull out to reveal the the the the the 10 million monsters coming crawling over the mountain and and and down towards you in the valley you know but you do that huge pull up and you reveal that you've got 20 people standing really tightly together in a cute expensive Valley and they're all standing so tight that they're in each other's personal space basically you know and they're getting ready to to you know take on an army you know that stating screams it's a small Studio you know you know that you know almost exactly where the extension starts and and and where the studio floor ends you know um that's another one you know but for them by far the the biggest one is just uh you don't like don't use fear facts if you if there's like don't don't just put it in there it's a thrill you know if you put it in there it's a thrill it will lose it's it's a thrillingness you know it just use it when when basically there's nothing else that will do the job you know you don't use costume to fix um the lighting you know I mean yeah you could hang a hang a dress over over a light and dim it that way but that wouldn't be a good way to fix the lighting you know so don't use the effects to fix the story or the direction or any of the other stuff you know I for me I think uh our most holy kind of purpose is to be a department just like all the other departments that is to say when you need an explosion you call in the sfx guys and they bring their big diesel explosion monster and they they make a huge Fireball you know but the rest of the year not just putting in the diesel explosion machine here and there just to put it in or making more shots than necessary and also once you do that once you approach it like that you also start thinking then when you're doing VFX shots okay if it wasn't a v effects you'll if I was doing this for real how would you know how would we Shield it you know we would probably this is a huge Valley we wouldn't be able to we wouldn't be in a helicopter because the rest of the show doesn't have any helicopter shots so let's not have one here right so um so we would be on a tripod on the opposite Mountain just shooting the valley pretty pretty undramatically but the scenery itself is dramatic you know and you can see your matte painting of of the Forgotten City or whatever and that that's how we would shoot it so now you start making your your photographic filmic language conform with with all of the the real uh shots that are non-vfx you know this is what you see a lot I think I think like you'll see you know you'll see you know something that's supposed to be a huge action film and a v effects film and everything but you'll see a very uh traditional build sequence right up to where the VFX really kick off and then after that then you know the all the rules go out the window here now you've got your most epic and and the expensive camera move you've got your you've all of a sudden you go from having sparsely populated frames with 10 extras and stuff like that to having thousands and and and so on so so you know as soon as we go into the city um sandbox people a lot of producers directors uh pilot on way too thick and without thinking about each sex aspect as you would do with the normal filming and uh shamefully I would say too many uh supervisors are happy to let them do that or don't know any better themselves or whatever you know whatever I'm not gonna question anybody's motivation I I do think that once you do these kind of movies and shots all the time you kind of just think that this is what we do you know the here comes the fight so now we're doing that thing that we do when we do the fight so um but that's something I think we really need to get out of and get out of this quickly you know like for me the most thrilling VFX film of the last many years maybe even a decade for me is soon by far you know that was the film that really really made me happy about our industry again you know and that's they use the VFX so sparsely and so correctly and and they you they use only only where it's the best tool of them all you know only where it's the best way to carry the arc forward and so on you know so so um and they also did for example and this is why I love Paul Lambert so much he's a compositor himself he's actually the inventor of a IBK um yeah the ipk here in New York yeah so he invented that back in the day and when he was at the digital domain and nuke was the uh proprietary software they had um but it's for him it's the photographic like he he seems to nail the photographic um uh para parameters before anything that's for him the most important thing is to get the exposure right VFX is more often than not guys I'm sorry to say the exposure is wrong you know because we want to show our work you know but it's often in scenes where you shouldn't be able to see anything other than just the glint in the eyes of the monster whatever and so we have a tendency to over light our stuff and over expose our us Overexposed in terms of now I don't mean exposure as light but like over percent you know have it to to uh to commonly available so so peace pass you know save it for for the Big Thrill you know that's that's my advice at least you know I mean if you ever see the alien suit um not lit in the movie but if you ever see the backstage yeah it's really fake I mean yeah rub a suit yeah yeah but in the movie it looks real and yeah because they've done exactly what you've said they've lit it you hardly see it I mean it's amazing if you watch alien how little you see that exactly and that's exactly that's what I love that's why that's like for me you know it's not filmmaking unless you have all these kind of uh limits you know once when you have that then it becomes filmmaking then it's like the suit's not good enough guys what the can we excuse my friends what can we do here you know and everybody's pissed and we have a big meeting about and stuff and and then you know the gaffer comes over and we'll have it super super low light and we'll we'll um we'll just smoke smoke it up you know like a lot of smoke and we're with like a really thick atmo and stuff like that and it'll do that and it's that's beautiful it's it works you know and and um and also the the other benefit of that is like nobody's sent out because we're watching it on the monitor you know we see if it works or not you know and if it doesn't work we'll do it again okay more smoke less smoke you know whatever whereas once it's down The Post Line it it becomes isolated and too few people are involved in the conversation really you know it's now maybe only the director and and the visual effects produ uh supervisor or or the producer or at the most the producer and the DP you know but there's no gaffer there's no costume there's no makeup there's no you know all of these really important departments that do so much for for film in general you know yeah I wonder if we can we can dive in and see in super virtual production considering what we've just been talking about um also because the last time we spoke it wasn't the thing of the Trend I guess in VFX so I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on on Virtual production and maybe how how it's already I mean a long time ago actually without me even knowing it at the time so I did some scans for mandaloring uh season two so and I didn't actually know that that was gonna go into the volume but it ended up there um and um so so it's definitely affecting a lot and like exactly this production I got off um if there's going to be a season two for example my my recommendation is that we now do quite a bit of virtual production on alongside shooting on location uh the way where we shot in in Saudi Arabia is called tabuk um and as a as a media uh kind of Studio complex called neum um and that studio complex has two Studios and and then you just have to test it like it is in the desert and you just then drive into the desert and find various locations if you want to go location but for interior stuff and and so on you can work in the studio which is nice um and I suggested that they would have they would get some some Led Studio to to be able to assemble it in one of the studios um but and like it's been a huge game changer I think I think it it it makes even more work for for vision facts supervisors you need to be even more careful with your planning because if you're shooting plates then you know you need to calculate your your depth of field and you need to understand what you know that you know I mean most cases you'll have to settle for nodal camera move uh rather than a free camera when you're dealing with plates uh uh of course if it's very far away then it's fine maybe but and the these this is what I'm now seeing not that I watch much but I at least Watch trailers and I see what my kids are watching and stuff like that I'm seeing a lot of mistakes being made with the LED screens uh now you know because it's such a hype thing and everybody's oh it's there's no green screen and we don't have to all that problem and so on you know but instead of the green screen now you're exactly seeing The Parallax issues the focus issues and more often than not you're seeing wrong black levels I don't know if you've noticed Daniel as a compositor but you'll see way too lifted black labels levels on the uh on the screens you know on the backgrounds and that's usually I mean it's a hard problem to deal with in general but if you don't have a fully contained LED Studio where you can kill all the ambient lighting and only have the your material driving the lighting then you'll always have that light bleed onto the wall you know we're lifting the blacks and and then you'll always have a have the uh higher black blacks than on the wall than on on your foreground subject so these These are the kind of problems that that now are pretty clear to me at least I'm sure there's more some that I have noticed but these are uh things that I'm seeing all the time uh but you know we also know this and you know this guy's working hard hours in the post you know that the effects is not always about the best quality you know sometimes the producer makes the call to have a lot lower quality and save himself uh you know a lot of money on it you know and and he's happy with it because he knows he won't it won't bother his audience you know um so I also feel like many of the streamers are Maybe it's certainly not the old Studio level uh um kind of quality control uh situation that that they're going through often and I'm then plenty of Productions are the best quality you'll ever see you know I'm not saying it's one idea I'm just saying it seems to be an option to kind of maybe go to to slack SL you know to to let a little bit of uh you know lifted Black Level slide or or you know a little bit of you know it's only it's only nerds like us that will notice that you know now this year but I mean they lift them in grade they lift them in great as well so sometimes you can say maybe maybe the composite or maybe even the plate was perfect yeah yeah well that that part of it I absolutely drives me nuts you know and I I it it is a miracle that I have not uh murdered any colorists uh yet you know because the grading the grading part of of our industry uh can be uh amazing powerful tool but if if the gaffer and the DP is doing that job correctly more often than not the most beautiful limits is just to maybe give it a little bit of a contrast thing and just leave the thing alone you know because they've done an amazing job job you know and and what I am drives me absolutely nuts is when they are exactly kind of uh you know make separation between layers that that we have spent you know hours and hours to just blend seamlessly together and so on you know and I I myself had one one issue where where I was doing one of these horrible car comps and I actually didn't get to supervise it but I was comping it so I was it was a it was a struggling uh uh thing to do it because it was shot wrongly it was Overexposed in in the uh interior of the car and or overlit and um and it actually turned out pretty well until it went to grade where they took a set made some secondary keys that had horrible banding all over in the keys and and graded it to like once again introduced layers where there shouldn't be any and and so on you know so um yeah but I mean the the this is also once again this is maybe the same kind of conversation as with the city and stuff like that I feel like in terms of bad use of VFX it's it's usually when we get into full CG or close to full City that the the wheels come off very often um and in terms of great like when people want to go stylized and Grading for long-form projects uh they lose me pretty quickly that's you know I think there's Maybe a handful at most uh artists that that where I where I would concede that they actually might bring something to to the footage you know but the rest of the time it's to the detriment of the footage I think unfortunately we'll try and get a colorist that we I've been trying to get okay very good okay you answer some of these accusations yes on the podcast but I I have seen also and I will not name or shame but I yeah we've all had the experience I think every composers had that experience of doing something they were very proud of and then seeing the grave I mean on the other hand I've seen things where I thought there's no way this is ever going to work and I've seen yeah do Miracles yeah I I'll give them that for sure exactly yeah yeah but that that's kind of the same that's our version of the alien suit is not gonna stand up for full body shot so let's just let's just have a hint of it here and a hint of it there you know and that yeah good color risk can do stuff like that for sure yeah and this is exactly uh what they what they should and they can do a lot of tricks they can help expose your focus and exposure and all kinds of stuff you know so so when they're doing that kind of work I appreciate that but the the kind of the heavy stylized touches really something I'm happy with uh as I say that I would be fun if you guys would get the Dune colors now to completely put me in my place you know and say like it was the heaviest created movie of all time or something you know which I it's it's quite yeah yeah it's kind of it's got a strong very blue cold yeah planet and there's a very uh I do right yeah I do think though in general it's kind of going with what's in the plate kind of pushing it uh like maybe like expanding it a little bit and and so on and I've seen some of the um raw footage of it so I I I'm I feel pretty okay still you know but that would definitely be one that I would love to see would if you could if you could get a hold of the or somebody on the colorist team yeah yeah exactly that would be great if you're watching come on Michelle yeah send maybe sent to Paul Paul Lambert a message and uh he's he's a fellow Londoner like you guys I think so he could give you your name I'm sure all right yeah so um yeah we had um we asked some of our listeners um okay yeah that's interesting for you and yeah we had a few come in so um yeah so yeah uh copy Ahmed was was asking um what the latest tech is well I I'm not the right guy to to ask that I mean what what I I would actually say one thing guys the one thing that sounds like so banal and and silly but there's an app for the iPhone called scanniverse that I I don't know if you know that but that app has actually been a real Lifesaver for all kinds of fluid situations where you don't have the time to set it up in a real you know photogrammetry tent or or anything you know you just need to get some kind of data uh some kind of scan data uh really quickly um and and that app has really produced some great results you know and and um I'm not like saying it's never gonna be like a staple of uh uh big production environment or anything like that but having that in your pocket as a Swiss army knife is amazing actually so uh um I would say my favorite piece of tech right now is just my Canon R5 my my camera it's uh the amount of stuff I can do with that like the the quality of the photogrammetry which I'm scanning on it is amazing the quality of the 8K raw plates that I'm shooting on it you know it's amazing you know just once again having a little little tool like that in your back and and being able to quickly you know you know you see the elements shoots not happening now because you're working double shifts and whatever you know can I borrow one of your sfx guys maybe and we can go in the corner and and now you've got some elements where you where they had been scrapped you know or or you see crowds sleepy and directed you know and it's two cameras you take another angle then you had the third ankle on the on the crowd you know and stuff like that you know so um I'm constantly kind of using it as a tool for targets of opportunity you know and and I love it it's just an amazing camera if you're into photography via in general it's an absolutely amazing camera so yeah and um yes later was asking about dangerous situations on set there's a lot you know it's actually you know the the thing about being on set is like we're so we're so focused and a lot of us are really stressed and and pressed you know and and you could almost say scared you know and you very often see very people that are that stressed that they're just in a kind of in us not in a state of panic they're still funds functioning but the they're completely scared you know and when they do that they completely forget to have any regard for their own safety you know and you often see people go way too close to you know at Cliff edges and and way too close to dangerous machinery and you know step over the lines for stunts you know when they're doing their line poles and stuff like that some of those lines are really they they're like put on to um you know kind of a catapult equipment and stuff like that you know so if you get that line stretched on to you it can be really dangerous and and um yeah there's plenty of Danger on by like unless it's just a studio environment and you're doing you know the latest Miss Marple or something like that then then there's usually plenty of danger to to be found and you really need to be careful and keep your senses about you um in Saudi Arabia there was a lot of heat Strokes for example yeah that's that was just one of those basic dangers that that everybody excuse me that everybody has to think about when you're in the desert you know and and we had daily people uh collapsing with heat Strokes you know so so keeping hydrated and and keeping you keeping covered from the Sun and stuff like that got two more questions um one is from Ian woo he asked whether you prefer the Clockwork rhythm of compositing eye Studio or the more chaotic workflow of being I love the chaos I have to say I absolutely love the chaos um I would say and I'm kind of unique I actually kind of I wouldn't say the chaos maybe but like yeah having a as the the more like I would I would be more probably stressed nowadays if it was let's say some kind of huge city scene and everything was previous then everything was you know completely perfect and it was a control Studio environment that no snow winging it anywhere then I would probably get more self self away you know because you that's it's been a while since I've done anything and I haven't done I haven't done the biggest scale in that term you know but I I have done a lot of chaotic stuff you know and and that's turned out okay so I kind of feel home there and but I am comping now I'm pumping a nice landing movie like eight hours a day over 10 10 12 and it's gonna be 16 hours probably next week um and that's nice though just to like I am kind of getting back into you know having a good coffee cup of coffee and listening to a good podcast and just you know getting into the the send of you know getting those pixels to look just right you know that's nice as well but I don't I mean I'm a supervisor so I can really only do it with these Icelandic movies the way the reason I'm still comping and and like really Hands-On company on on Icelandic movies is because once again I have these relationships with with producers and and directors up here and often it comes down to when we don't have the money and I'll then go and say uh well you know you you 20 short but if you can stress out your your your production your post-production so I can use more of my idle time to work on it then I personally can comp a lot more and I won't be taking any risk on on on the salary for for Freelancers and stuff like that and then I'm willing to to you know take more of a chance with the price and I'll lower the price for you that way you know and you know 99 of the time the producer says yes I'll take that deal for sure I'll you'll get more time if you can do it so that's a way I've found I can I can do it I can keep myself you know involved in the comp which I I would be really sad if I kind of completely lost touch with that you know of course you never completely lose touch but if I completely lost my touch you know if I was now you know so many versions behind everybody else and and then you know fumbling about what the newest gear is stuff like that then then it becomes non-viable to do it you know and I think I'm still viable to do it even though I'm sure most most senior companies are performed better than me by now but I'm still a critical supervisor so I still have to uh I have to get my own approval which is not always easy so yeah yeah my last question from Wu as well he's just asking how you feel about the down times with waiting around for for the right take yeah I mean it's it's a it's a definitely a true cliche that you know in movies it's hurry up and wait you know that's definitely especially when you're in this specialized departments but in visual effects you know there's usually we can usually do something to use the time but as the supervisor I I shouldn't be spraying off too much you know I want to keep because there's always stuff coming up so I want to stay close to the directors close to the monitor just keep an eye on it and just hang around and then that that way if there's actual downtown this is when I get to know people you know because people are super interesting on on set you know and I just cultivate that you know get to real friends for life really and um and I also I'm very always very curious about the other departments so I'll have a long conversation about something that doesn't have any impact on Me Maybe but I just find it interesting you know and just learn about about that stuff you know um but usually I mean unless like downtown would usually uh be when the when there's a lot of work going on or a very high Tempo but it doesn't at all involve VFX so that means that I don't have a producer I don't have a director to talk between texts and stuff like that because usually I'm close to the monitor if not just next to the director and um and between takes usually the conversation always goes into something you know that we we're thinking about the next day on the next scene or whatever and trying to stay on top of that you know so as a supervisor there's not too much downtown but I I like it when I do get it you know I I think it's more like yeah some of the other departments you can definitely see how how it can get tedious you know um you know for example uh you know lighting often gets you know it's crazy crazy busy and hot and heavy work you know for a couple of minutes because everybody's waiting for the lighting to be ready and then when it's ready then maybe we shoot the whole day with that lighting and it's just like maybe tweak one lamp here and one lamp there once an hour at the most you know and you have a whole department for that and then now they're just standing around you know and I can see how they get bored but you know you shouldn't really get born and said there's plenty to learn and understand the amazing people to get to know what would you what would be your advice to a filmmaker who is looking at using VFX for the first time okay I'll get this a lot these days actually I would I mean there is definitely benefit to it but for most filmmakers they will probably get themselves in more trouble than not you know because if they are too cognitive of of what because our department is quite special it's really all of the other departments put into one virtual post Department you know you have lighting you have modeling you have you have all of the others you have even costumes and stuff like that you know so so our department is is is way too overwhelming for for example a director I think unless it's just his natural interest and and he finds it easy to learn this stuff that's fine but I would say you know you you would be wary of a director that would let lighting have have a huge influence on on his his story arc before he goes to do it you know even though lighting will be a key stylistic element in his production and all of that you know you would just basically tell them don't worry we'll do the lining that's fine just make sure you do your Arc and do it you know write whatever you want the story to be and then we'll figure out how we do it if we can do it and and how we do it you know so uh and that's similar to what I've I've recommended for for because they ask me a lot directors actually how how to uh so I've recommended mostly that they don't worry about that and and just maybe you know if anything you know try and work with many supervisors and try and um you know try and try and learn learn about the supervisors you know what what is this guy giving me what is this guy giving me and so on you know because that that you might actually get some something as a director you know you say oh I want to do uh animated short you know and this guy is an unbelievable CT slash animation supervisor so I I want to use him you know so um that's what for example happened with the prehistoric Planet you know there's directors that come out of Animation you know because it's dinosaurs it's really important understanding and DNR to me and and the performance of these animals you know they it's it's very very um crucial to this to the success of the Arc of of that series is is that we get a connection with the dinosaurs and and it's believable and all of that you know so yeah so but if you insist on on learning about visual effects I would I would almost say you know have fun then and and go into the old stuff you know and and learn about what they do how how it really started and I mean you can say it started and what you can even say Charlie Chaplin and stuff like that but I think the industry as we have it right now for me it started with the Stanley Kubrick's 2001 you know it started with the amazing Douglas trample who is passed away now um who really introduced our our new modern methods of working uh then it was a photographic completely photographic chemical mechanical uh painterly process but all of those principles are still really the our main categories and Main um at least from the the assembly part the compositing part is is still our main at tools and I I would say if you if you then understand these principles really well you know whether you come at it from Modern production or the old-fashioned for me I find it more fun to what's what the old guys did you know and then then I think yeah then you are definitely in a good place you've you've added something to your to your palette for sure um but you know like me I have a couple of stories I I want to do and in some ways I see it as a impairment having the the hands-on experience you know because it it builds in problems so like my my reaction is so naturally to try and solve the problem that I'm not letting the story live you know so um you really have to be careful with that you know because when you're making stories you shouldn't worry about any problems you know Sky should be the limit and then we start breaking it down and and work out how actually we can do it in terms of if you want me to be specific I would actually recommend the ilm docu series on uh Disney plus now it's it's very kind of a uh casual a really good casual introduction to what visual effects is you know even though it's mainly dealing with with uh how ilm was before it became a computerized but they even go pretty pretty well in depth with that before I let you go I just wanted to to get your your opinion as we were discussing earlier on about that the recent archive for overwork or overworking of artists um I mean I I guess you've you've had that from early because I I know being on set is pretty much you guys have it to the extreme so I'm just wondering well actually no I would I mean you're right there coffee in some certain situation but that's so condensed and period you know the thing about the onset is it's all unionized and even when it's not unionized there's enough of Union rules in there that it matters so once you go beyond 10 hours it's over time so you get one and a half time and once you go beyond 12 hours and you get double pay or whatever so all of these things are kind of settled in in the onset world you know and this of course doesn't apply to a visual effects supervisor who's working on a bit you know he's just there as a contractor and com like I'm not directly on salary with the on with the production as the main crew is but so it doesn't apply really to me but but in terms of the working environment that all is settled it's not settled in our industry of course and I would definitely say the the the long long long long long periods where you could be working at 12 14 16 hour days six six day weeks for three months or something to get some crazy deadline over the line and that's really really wearing and and creates way too much burnout you know but the problem visual effects has kind of built into it is that as even as as clever as we are with all the computers and stuff like that as you guys know it's very manual labor heavy heavy really you know yeah there's a lot of manual work that needs to go into it you know and and when that is the the pressure to keep pay and and uh conditions low is enormous you know it's it's not only our industry even though our industry is not very nice in that regard but you know when you have these this kind of a task that needs just a lot of Manpower it's very rare that they become high paying high paying jobs in our Industries our industry at least has this tier system so you know you work your way up through the rank and become senior now you're making a decent living and and your conditions hopefully is a little bit better you know but you really have to go through some brutal stuff as a junior getting into into the movies and stuff like that you know and and I really don't think there's like I can understand I can understand it in terms of I can explain it but we shouldn't be fine with it the company shouldn't be fine with it VFX companies are working on a way to to narrow margins and general you know there's very little and can go go array before the companies and in real big trouble you know so um um this is um you know the the problem with with VFX is of course it's so easily outsourceable and so easily movable in terms of work that um that we will always be fighting a lower bit somewhere you know so um but but I would say just in general guys for you know in with film in general it it if you go into thinking I'm gonna get a job here you're probably not going to be very happy you really need to approach it in in a way that way you're thinking this is gonna be my lifestyle because I am an artist anyway I really I really uh aspire to do these what I consider is the highest in in Artistry in our day and age and and I want to get into that so now you're approach it as a lifestyle now the fact that you're doing something to make the picture better but you're not really getting paid for it or whatever that doesn't bite as much you know you're not as pissed as as before you know and and and I'm and like then you the answer to that would be you know I don't want people take advantage of you or whatever I'm sure they will uh the the bad act as well you know but that's the people that you're gonna be running from as soon as you you have the experience as soon as you're senior You're Gonna Move Yourself away from those people and into better people and so on and I would in general say one year Junior just don't work like if you have a situation where you can not worry too much about the low pay go into the bigger companies and get that experience working in the big pipelines with the with the high-end movies and learning from some of the best seniors in the world and um and learn that and then you know when you want to try and build something a little bit more stable for yourself and you're thinking maybe a little bit more about life quality along with the Artistry and all of that then maybe go into slightly smaller Studios the medium-sized Studios and stuff like that I found that they have more more of a culture and maybe more room to accommodate people as people you know but because some situations it's almost cattle-like you know it really is sweatshops you know in in some periods in some companies you know and and I don't like I I don't I you know I know some companies are doing it uh in a slight not malicious way but in a cynical way maybe uh but I think actually most companies are just struggling planning this and and you know and they just get they get a you know expose the cell themselves you know they get in trouble financially themselves you know so um so I I don't I don't think um blaming is maybe the right approach I think I do think the industry in general is going more towards smaller size Studios than than the big big whales you know and I think they're still out there but I think they're they're conditions is harder and harder for them to to exist to be honest and and we're getting you know better and better and do it doing really high-end stuff in with fewer and fewer people you know so so it means that if those people that are doing it in the smaller studios are getting more meaningful work not just the road or not just the paint you know they're being brought up the line quicker than than in in the old days and the big studios you know so and yeah sure it's not it's really it's it's one of those which is really almost impossible to solve at this current moment Technologies and stuff like that will influence you know we see AI potentially down the line taking care of things like Road or maybe and and stuff like that you know uh but you know also we should also you know this might be brutal badly paid work you know but it's maybe making a foundation for people in India and China or Bangladesh or whatever which you know maybe maybe that's not a bad thing even though we can maybe see the malicious or the cynical producer you know in Hollywood you know saving another another 100 million you know and pocketing it if you approach things that way you'll always struggle with the enjoying your yourself I think because you can always find cynical elements in this business and and but the truth is the business is mainly uh populated by really amazing kind and and generous people you know so uh try and try and enjoy that rather than let the the few bad apples spoil it like that just yeah well as you mentioned most of the film industry is unionized do you think that's something that will develop within the effect do you think there's something that should develop within the effects and yeah I think I think so I don't I I mean there's there there are parallels but then there's things that so you know like the fact that the work is so easily movable you know so one territory will unionize and you know the Hollywood I mean to be honest these streamers have more of a it's part of their marketing even is to be more aware of the environment not to be basically bad bad companies you know and so I think maybe it should be more of a dialogue with the with the with the uh producers you know um how to get us in there because if if it's gonna be really successful I think if we started a real dialogue if we if we had some kind of organization where we started a real dialogue with the producing parties about how to get us in there just like how to get us on our credit list you know where we should be on the credit list and so on if we start that dialogue with them then at some point it first of all become clear who's completely cynical and and working this system maliciously uh and it it will also become clear who is who will be the main driver of chains on their side um so and and and once something is settled even if it's way too little for us once something is settled we then know that that's actually going to become a standard and that will then maybe be some kind of Base that we can then start working working upwards from you know um I I don't think um I mean there's a lot of problems with with you with unions as well you know even even the union guys will tell you you know it it can you know the the the famous thing is like somebody will drop a coffee coffee cuff and uh on set and they won't you know uh they won't clean it up after them because they're not that's not they're not allowed to buy Union rules and so on there's supposed to be a cleaner that cleans that copy of copper and so on you know um so it can be a little bit too um to rule heavy as well but in general I feel like it works pretty well and I think um something similar definitely is you know that it should be the starting point from from when when uh what we should talk about in in our industry I definitely think so yeah I mean I don't think I don't think anybody will will um gain in the long term by this High rate of burnout that we see in our industry I mean that's the other thing is that you get these talented people that just stop being here and it's it's sad you know people want to do it excuse me guys myself most on this thing the boy after 20 minutes no I we Excuse me yes I think we've we've covered all the bases I think we want some kind of some kind of summary what would you what would be your way of kind of concluding this interview if you could say one thing there's a I I mean good advice once again you know you know take it as as you know approach it as a lifestyle as because you are an artist so this is a way for you to to live you know through your work your artistic life um work hard uh be honest don't worry about getting yours if you're working hard and honest people will notice then they will they will definitely want to promote you uh and and will promote themselves on the way you know because you're you're an asset um and um embrace the filmmaker I would say you know why if you're in visual effects and doing primarily a long form and and film you know really Embrace that and and um and have fun with that uh you you will your if visual effects will will uh flourish for it I think thank you so yeah thank you so much thank you all right for your time[Music]