The health of the VFX industry in 2024, with foudner of MOTUS Kurt Maclachlan | TVAP EP57

The health of the VFX industry in 2024, with foudner of MOTUS Kurt Maclachlan | TVAP EP57

In this episode, I chat to Kurt Maclachlan about the status of the VFX in 2024.

We discuss where things are at currently, what needs to be done for a better future of the VFX industry and more!

00:00 Introduction and Background
02:48 Causes of the Strikes
04:29 Key Concerns for Actors and Writers
04:59 Impact on VFX Artists
06:06 Duration of the Strikes
07:48 Current State of the Industry
08:09 Hiring and Recovery
09:07 Rate Negotiations and Holding the Line
10:06 Outsourcing and Global Rates
12:11 Impact of Strikes on Crew
15:04 Embracing AI and Automation
39:34 Positioning for Graduates
41:29 Improving Courses and Industry Collaboration
42:54 Networking and Job Search Strategies
47:02 Preventing Future Industry Disruptions
52:03 Introduction to Motus and its Mission
55:03 Staying Connected and Informed
57:04 Closing Remarks and Future Outlook


Watch the full videos
📣Inside VFX Recruitment with Melissa Blakey, Global Head of Talent at Crafty Apes | TVAP EP53 (Part-1)
      https://youtu.be/C6n0zndRPDI
📣Inside VFX Recruitment with Melissa Blakey, Global Head of Talent at Crafty Apes | TVAP EP53 (Part-2)
     https://youtu.be/BNXNMo32oes

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Transcript

Kurt Maclachlan (00:01)
it's the hardest, it's the worst time right now because we're so close. And the problem is, is everyone's been kind of sat on the sidelines.

Kofi (00:06)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (00:12)
for so long using those reserves. That you've got people in Vancouver talking about food banks for VFX artists. I mean, that's just devastating to be reading. And is where some people are at. People have gone into crazy amounts of debt. People are remortgaging houses, struggling to pay rent.

Kofi (00:15)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (00:42)
And that's because their resource has been crushed, is the reality. The only silver lining is, is that we are really close now to that end, or certainly from what I see. We've already, you know, even from my point of view, we're starting to make some hires now. And that's a really positive sign. It's nowhere near the speed that we want.

Kofi (00:46)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (01:12)
but people are starting to get placed. LinkedIn, every day now, more and more people are joining new studios, which is great to see. It's not at the pace we The positive is, is when this does come back, you're not gonna have studios looking for one or two profiles. They're gonna have to scale pretty big. So...

Kofi (01:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (01:41)
So the reality is, is there's no reason why, the way I see it, you know, by September, October, the roles have reversed again and studios are now, you know, VFX houses are struggling

Kofi (01:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

mean, I mean, first of all, welcome on the show is, yeah, it's been, yeah, been great. It's been wanting to have you on for some time. So it's good to have you finally. Yeah, finally have you on. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I know a lot of people are like, wanting answers and anxious and

Kurt Maclachlan (02:11)
Happy to be here man. Yeah, let's have our catch-ups on a podcast instead.

Kofi (02:26)
worried as well so I think it'd be great to get an idea from you of where things are and where things are going so but I think before that it'd be great to just go back a bit and just try to understand a bit more about what really happened on the righteous track like what happened and what caused it



Kurt Maclachlan (02:49)
I mean, yeah, good question. There was lots of things flying around, you know, on the grapevine. I think the reality is that the key thing, I believe from an actor's point of view was, you know, the royalties and things like that, you know, wanting to be better paid for repeat shows.

I think from a writer's point of view, you know, wanting a bigger piece of the pie, which I can understand, but on the flip side, you know, how many writers kind of put their money where their mouth is and...

and say, don't pay me for this. I want just a straight percentage of the projects. Who knows that I'm not in Hollywood. So maybe that does happen, but maybe because of the strikes, it doesn't or not to the extent it maybe should. Obviously protection against AI as well and all that kind of jazz.

Kofi (03:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (04:02)
I don't think we're at the point yet where AI is gonna, you know, write blockbuster scripts without needing proofreading. Maybe it will one day, you never know. Which is another interesting topic, other interesting talking topic. But I think they're probably the key things for actors, actresses, it's the royalty side of things, which I think was the main bugbear.

Kofi (04:08)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (04:29)


Kofi (04:30)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (04:30)
um you know um crowd work as well you know extras that kind of stuff um and then yeah for the for the writers i think overall wanting a bigger piece of the pie and protection against you know sort of ai and stuff like that is my understanding um i think you know they probably they probably knew that this was going to happen you know um weeks months before it actually

Kofi (04:34)
Okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Kurt Maclachlan (04:59)
you know, maybe, maybe the studios managed to get a bit more prepared than um, than those people in VFX, you know.

Kofi (05:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Definitely for sure. I mean, it was unexpected. Like no one, no one saw it coming. Really. Yeah, it was just, it's been a nightmare. Yeah. But yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (05:23)
Well, that was said, you know, it kind of, as we were saying, you know, on previous conversations, I think with the strikes from a VFX point of view, you either got, you either were just coming to the end of a project, so you've been feeling the pinch since May. So, you've been feeling the pinch since May.

Kofi (05:37)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (05:40)
or you know you were in a real fortunate position to have a project kind of just land before the strikes kicked in and that's kept people busy until the back end of 2023 which is great for those individuals because it's hopefully given them a bit more time to sort of process what was happening whilst trying to create a plan.

Kofi (05:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.



Kurt Maclachlan (06:06)
get through the rest of the siege. But yeah, some people have been in this siege now since May. So yeah, pretty brutal.

Kofi (06:09)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, like I was saying, it, I think all we needed was just an understanding of because no one knew what was going on. No one knew that there'll be this length of a gap for things to pick up. And it was just, everyone was just trying to get onto the next job or trying to find the next position. And everyone else was doing it and there was nothing else going on. And then there was...

Kurt Maclachlan (06:29)
Yeah.

Kofi (06:41)
people undercut artists undercutting and it's just nightmare.

Kurt Maclachlan (06:41)
No.

everyone doing anything they can to try and try and get through you know and look there's no right or wrong um and also I think I think the world didn't realize the impact on the strikes you know um the big guys get all the um all the all the air time and whatnot but you know stunt teams lighting setting up rigs you know makeup um

Kofi (06:48)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (07:15)
art direction, everything you can think of to do with a film, you know, everybody else has lost. It's a lose-lose for everybody else, you know? You know, when you look at the margins that have been agreed, et cetera, I don't know how long it's gonna take before it's actually a win-win for the strikes to have happened anyway, but you know, that's their thought process, I guess.

Kofi (07:26)
Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. What? Where do you think? Where are we at currently then in the industry? So?

Kurt Maclachlan (07:49)
Um, well, I mean we can we can do the we can do the um gentle approach or the Or the you know, the full the full force. This is how it is approach. What what do you fancy man? Um

Kofi (07:59)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, let's do the full four as it'd be good to have the realistic. Um, yeah, just get the full picture of where things are really.



Kurt Maclachlan (08:10)
I think the reality is in, you know, speaking from a personal point of view as well, you know, Mo has been thriving through this, that's for sure, you know. And the reality is, it's the hardest, it's the worst time right now because we're so close. And the problem is, is everyone's been kind of sat on the sidelines.

Kofi (08:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (08:38)
for so long using those reserves. That you've got people in Vancouver talking about food banks for VFX artists. I mean, that's just devastating to be reading. And that is where some people are at. People have gone into crazy amounts of debt. People are remortgaging houses, struggling to pay rent.

Kofi (08:41)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (09:08)
And that's because their resource has been crushed, is the reality. The only silver lining is, is that we are really close now to that end, or certainly from what I see. We've already, you know, even from my point of view, we're starting to make some hires now. And that's a really positive sign. It's nowhere near the speed that we want.

Kofi (09:12)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (09:37)
but people are starting to get placed. LinkedIn, every day now, more and more people are joining new studios, which is great to see. It's not at the pace we need. The positive is, is when this does come back, you're not gonna have studios looking for one or two profiles. They're gonna have to scale pretty big. So...

Kofi (09:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah sure.



Kurt Maclachlan (10:07)
So the reality is, is there's no reason why, the way I see it, you know, by September, October, the roles have reversed again and studios are now, you know, VFX houses are struggling to find crew because everyone's been taken again. And I think that process is gonna start in May, June. I was hoping it was gonna start in March, April, sorry. But things just haven't.

Kofi (10:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Thank you.

March.

Kurt Maclachlan (10:36)
haven't moved as quick as everyone was hoping. Why that is, I'm not sure.

Kofi (10:40)
Yeah. What do you think? Where's the blockage? Like, what needs to happen for the work to come out? Or where does it need to come from?

Kurt Maclachlan (10:49)
Well, I think you look at people's schedules last year and everyone was gearing up for projects to be starting between September and November, which means that everyone would have been groovy and fine at this point. Why was it because of the strikes? You think...

Kofi (10:53)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (11:12)
the strikes, what did that last for those guys? What from May the 2nd until November? I can't remember the date, but it was in November. So, you've got to think that everything got put on the back burner by all that time. So those projects realistically that should have been starting on those dates aren't gonna be starting until June now, realistically. And in between that,

Kofi (11:17)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (11:41)
that's as, that's really as good as it's going to get because unless someone's going to, unless someone was going to just come to the table and write a script and, and produce, direct and shoot it within a couple of months, there's actually, there's actually not really much work to, to be going after, you know. Unfortunately, a few, a few facilities have, have gone under. So people have picked up work from, from them. You know, you're seeing

Kofi (11:50)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (12:11)


VFX long form facilities trying to creep into commercial. You know, everyone's kind of scrambling for any bit of work, but the reality is the work just isn't there because of all those delays, if that makes sense.

Kofi (12:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. What are you getting or what are artists telling you? Like, what have you been hearing from artists? Because there's a lot of despair. There's a there's

Kurt Maclachlan (12:43)
Hit some.

It's a really interesting time in that sense because it's people are asking me about, you know, remote work and, and relocation and things like that, which, you know, we kind of went through a phase and a period where remote work was, you know, the, the driving force, you know, COVID, COVID proved that that, that worked.

Kofi (12:50)
Mm.

Yes.

Kurt Maclachlan (13:17)
people are now thinking, if I relocate to a studio, wherever they're based, and have a hybrid model instead of the fully remote, am I gonna get a better chance of getting a job? I would, from a long-term selfish point of view.

that I would rather people do that and hold the line on their rates instead of being like, you know, I'd rather be one of the first to be hired remotely but I'm gonna drop my rate to do so. You know, people are dropping their rates and saying, look, I'll happily look at a decrease and it's coming from a point of struggle which is...

Kofi (13:58)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (14:08)
isn't nice to see and it's what I would yeah what I would rather happen is people hold the line because I think that this is this is where it's going to come to fruition in the sense of all the talks that have happened through these strikes and you know I'm going to be going to be asking for this going to be asking for that there's also people that will be will not be so

Kofi (14:10)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (14:37)
it'll be interesting to see if there's gonna be a night in front on rates with VFX artists, you know, and are they going to undercut because they just are desperate for work, which is again, who am I to say, you know, that everyone's got different situations and families and bills to pay. On the flip side, if people can...

Kofi (14:43)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (15:04)


can hold out. You know, I don't think we're ever gonna get to a point where there's a monopoly of being able to charge whatever you want. But if people can hold the line on their rates and be paid what they were being paid before these strikes, hopefully getting paid a bit more, then that's gonna take a little bit of holding out because...

Kofi (15:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (15:35)
once the initial set of crew has been hired, that scramble is gonna happen again. So it's not gonna be a case of, we need people at a lower salary. People will accept that this is their rate. But this was my rate before COVID. I'm gonna hold out and this is what I'm gonna do. I'll relocate and do a hybrid position.

Kofi (15:47)
Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (16:03)
and keep my rate, I think that's a good bargaining tool. But, you know, the hybrid role is always an interesting one. You know, hybrid's cool if you live in a city that's popping full of VFX, you know. Like London, it's an easy city to be an artist and say I'm happy to do remote work if you live there. I mean, hybrid work, sorry, because you've got an abundance of stuff. A facility in...

Kofi (16:15)
Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (16:30)
in Germany or a facility in Atlanta or, you know, Stockholm that's offering hybrid work for that work-life balance, you know, it doesn't have the same appeal because the reality is you're going to have to relocate to have that. But looping background, people seem to be quite open to that. Not everyone, but people do, which...

Kofi (16:56)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (16:58)
which is cool. Hybrid work, remote work is amazing. But before COVID, people would have moved mountains to relocate for a project, which, you know, reminiscing was a really nice thing. I said remote work is amazing, but people...

Kofi (17:14)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (17:27)
people would move mountains for, because it was their passion and they wanted to work on all of these shows. So who knows where we'll get to with that, but yeah, people are talking about relocating, again, which is a very interesting point.

Kofi (17:37)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, it's been interesting because I've tried to hold my rate steady. Like, I've been, there's been times where I've been approached for my availability and I've tried to hold my rate, but I've lost work to other artists that I know myself, personally know, that have gone in and been given that position based on the fact that they've gone on a lower rate.

Kurt Maclachlan (17:59)
Mm-hmm.

Kofi (18:14)
which has been happening quite a lot before the new year. So it was quite desperate times.

Kurt Maclachlan (18:14)
Yep.

It really is. And it's interesting, you know, because it's all, there needs to be a way to work out rates for the industry instead of, and also people understanding that facilities have different budgets and it's not, and I personally don't think that a small facility should be able to pay or has the budget to pay the same as, you know, one of the big guns.

Kofi (18:28)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah sure.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (18:55)
And the reality is the work might be slightly different. And an understanding that as an industry, I don't know many other industries that have got a standard blanket approach. You look at tech, someone that works at Google is gonna get paid a hell of a lot more than someone that works at a startup.

Kofi (18:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

yet

Yes, sir.

Kurt Maclachlan (19:25)
You know, they might be doing the same job and might even have the same years of experience. But the reality is that startup doesn't have the capital that Google does. And it's the same in visual effects. What that does need to be, I think is...

Kofi (19:27)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (19:46)
A facility doesn't have to necessarily disclose to the world what they can pay, but I think what would be cool is if a senior walks through the door and says, I want to be paid, what's the brackets? Studio says, these are the brackets, and there needs to be justification for that. So I guess a really simple way of looking at this is let's have a senior junior, a senior mid and a senior senior.

So if you've got three rates within a senior bracket, you know, well, look, we think this individual can answer all of our problems. So we're gonna put them on the senior senior. You know, look, you've got most of the tools in your locker, but we're kind of missing this little bit. So we're gonna put you on the senior mid. And once you've...

Kofi (20:19)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (20:40)
accomplish that, let's discuss and get on the senior senior. And you know again someone who's someone who's maybe coming through on it's their first sort of senior position on that junior rate and you can have that across juniors and mids too. And just be I think quite open about that when you're when you're crewing up and then it's up to the then it's up to the artists to decide whether they want to want to take that and then and then that way you know

You don't have seniors that have got, you know, sometimes 100, 100 pound euro dollar differences, you know, that senior is being paid that and that senior is being paid that because that's what causes friction. Um, and you know, some studios will have, there'll be budget leftover and, um, and then, and then it's that, okay, we're desperate, we need someone. So let's try and get someone. Um, so you, you can't understand it from.

Kofi (21:20)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (21:41)
from their point of view in the sense of these guys are service providers too, right? They're trying to get their job done, but on the flip side, I actually don't think.

Kofi (21:45)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (21:52)
on the whole, I think if you did a poll and was like, you've got someone at a medium size facility and someone at a big size facility and there was a difference in rate, I think there'd be a lot more understanding. But if you've got two people at the mid-size facility on massively different rates because of circumstance, that's naturally gonna, I think, upset people a little bit more.

Kofi (22:22)
Right, yep.

Kurt Maclachlan (22:23)
So yeah, the holding the rates and trying to stick to that is important. I think if we can get VFX houses to maybe approach it with that point of view, then at that point as an individual artist, whether you agree or disagree with the rates that they have because of their circumstances, that's irrelevant at least.

at least you can see that anybody in that facility, because people talk about rates, right? Like, studios don't want you to talk about it, but you do, okay? So the reality is, is if you're working at the same facility and your contract says senior, and my contract says senior, then we should be able to go three, two, one, what's your rate? And we both say the same number. If I'm a...

Kofi (22:53)
Yeah, of course, yeah.

Yes, transpire it. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Of course.

Yeah.

Yep.

Kurt Maclachlan (23:19)
senior, if I'm a senior mid and you're a senior and we go three, two, one, I should understand that I'm going to be on a little bit lower than you and know that there's justification for that and I've got to work on something to get that next jump. I don't know. I don't know. It's just a thought process.

Kofi (23:25)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. How sustainable do you think is with outsourcing of work from? Yeah, from the West into here? Cheaper houses or like outside of the West? I guess considering what's what's? Yeah, what's happened? Currently? Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (23:57)
I think.

Well, look, it all comes down to that, I don't want to, you know, I think race to the bottom is the wrong word, is the wrong phrase, but the reality is it comes down to those different budgets again. And, you know, you'll have the top four facilities passing work on to very reputable small to medium facilities, you know? So you can actually look at this and go, there's people...

Kofi (24:15)
night.

Kurt Maclachlan (24:31)
passing work from the West to the West. You know, that happens all the time. You know, I think that, I think that when you're outsourcing work, it depends on the type of project, I guess. You know, you have a lot of people that have maybe set up a facility, you know, and they're like a.

three, four person band and they've gone somewhere where the tax is really low and they're saying, come and use us. I get approached about that all the time. It's not really, I get hired to find individuals, not outsourcing work. I think if that's what you want to do, I go for it, but I think that...

Kofi (25:16)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (25:24)
those kind of operations only really thrive off reputation. If that facility that you've built a relationship with, you need to be going to them directly because if they trust you and your work, they'll outsource to you. But for me to send somebody as an outsourcing company to a facility that they've never spoken to before, that the trust just isn't there, you can...

Kofi (25:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (25:54)
Obviously there's different VFX houses worldwide. And, you know, I think that again, the problem is, is if you don't outsource that kind of work, then there's people that are out of money that rely on that. Their cost goes up. I think that, look, if...

Kofi (26:15)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (26:22)
If you don't do it, somebody else will. And that's probably where people are. I probably don't think it goes any deeper than that, realistically. If we don't do it, they will, which means that their bid can be X amount less than our bid, which makes us less competitive. But then you put that back onto the VFX Studio.

Kofi (26:25)
for sure.

Right.

show.

Kurt Maclachlan (26:50)
I mean not the VFX studio, the studios, your Netflix's, et cetera. You can go back and say, yeah, our bid is higher, but we're supporting, and that's because we're supporting junior New Yorkers or junior Londoners or something like that. Is that something that these big studios care about? You'd have to ask them.

Kofi (26:54)
Yeah.

Right. Sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (27:18)
But I think that, you know, again, that'd be a, that'd also be pretty cool. But you know, yeah, there's a lot of people out there that aren't in the Western world, can't just get a visa to jump around, you know? So they rely on that remote work, that outsourcing to feed their families and survive, you know? Like, I think that's one of the beautiful things about.

Kofi (27:34)
show. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (27:46)
visual effects, it's global. Every country, whether it's country-specific, independent, low-budget stuff, or global, Marvel, everybody uses VFX, and there's VFX artists and production crew worldwide that are trying to make a living. Quite long-winded, but...

you know, do you look at, is it undercutting if the margin of profit is the same? I guess. So what I mean by that is, let's say someone's outsourcing and somebody isn't, you know, is the outsourcing keeping it at the same profit margin for that individual? So is the person that the money's going to,

Even though it looks cheaper on paper, it's because their cost of living is totally different. You know, their rent is different, their food, their groceries, schools, et cetera. If that's actually in line, you know, then it is outsourcing.

an issue, I don't know. I think for you as an artist, how do you feel about that?

Kofi (29:16)
Um, well, that wasn't less. Um.

I mean, it depends, right? So it depends on the situation. I have.

I, how do I put it? It becomes, I mean, I guess it only becomes an issue when artists can't find work. And then we see that it's, I mean, obviously it's been outsourced and obviously for, I don't know, we as artists, we're thinking, maybe because it's cheaper for them to send it out and whereas, I mean, obviously everyone has, like you said, everyone has their bills to pay, so.

Kurt Maclachlan (29:43)
show.

Kofi (30:02)
it just depends on the situation. Usually it's not an issue until we...

Kurt Maclachlan (30:06)
And it's really interesting because as you kind of explore it and have these conversations, we've had a lot of conversations with a lot of people over this period.

Kofi (30:16)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (30:25)
it does become an individual thought process in the sense of, you know, I remember speaking to someone, they were based in the United States, I won't say where but it wasn't New York or LA and they were asking me what they should put themselves forward for as a rate for New York

Kofi (30:41)
Yep.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (30:55)
Are you going to be totally remote? Are you gonna do some hybrid? You know, if you're doing hybrid, do you charge a New York rate for the days you're in New York? Do you then charge a rate that's more suited to your cost of living when you're back home? You know, there's no right or wrong. Let's talk about this. And their kind of response was, you know, like, it's not my fault that...

the New Yorker lives in New York, which is a completely valid point. You know, but then on the flip side, my, my response to that was, you know, well, what happens when, you know, um, someone in a state in the U S with even lower tax than where you are comes in and says, you know,

Kofi (31:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (31:47)
It's not my problem that you live there. You know? And it's that thought process that I think as a collective, as an industry, we need to resolve because yes, remote work is amazing. What I do think is it's created an individual thought process to the rates, you know?

Kofi (31:49)
Right, yeah sure, yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (32:16)
Because yeah, like again, I don't agree or disagree with, with any of the points. Everyone's got valid points, right? But, but you know, you go on that thought process and, you know, in the next 10 years, nobody's going to live in any of these VFX hubs and everybody's going to be working in a 0% tax area. And you'll have had to have relocated, you would have had to have relocated at this point just to get work because.

Kofi (32:39)
Yeah.

because yeah, yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (32:46)
no one's going to pay you when they can pay people them rates. So it's not actually just Western world companies outsourcing work to other parts of the world. It's also individuals that are relocating to be cheaper too.

Kofi (32:52)
Mm-hmm.

show.

Kurt Maclachlan (33:15)
And then on the flip side, you have people that will go to a really cheap destination and then want to charge their full rate. Which again, I don't disagree with if you can get it, do it and live a life. But on the flip side, that might not always happen too. So the rate thing...

Kofi (33:33)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (33:43)
and outsourcing work and stuff. There's not, nothing will get fixed until there's an understanding globally of putting some standard things in place, you know? And you can then look back at the rates and say, that senior junior, senior mid, you know, then at that point, wherever you live,

those are the rates. These are the rates we can afford. That's what works to our margin. If you live in our city, then amazing. If you don't, amazing. You're still gonna both get paid the same. But the funny thing is, you're still gonna upset people. And that's the really interesting thing about the rates and the outsourcing of work.

Kofi (34:28)
Yeah, ah yeah, yes always, always.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Regarding topic of AI should not sure what you've been hearing, but should artists be worried about the increase in advancement of AI and automation? Should VFX artists or should we be should we be worried?

Kurt Maclachlan (35:07)
Um, look, not right now is the, I don't think that, you know, again, I'm not in Silicon Valley, I'm not embedded with all these tech people and stuff, but I don't think right now, I would love it to essentially be a tool, look, it's coming regardless, you know, it is my thought process and that's not just in visual effects, I just think...

in general, AI is coming. Hopefully it's a tool that can aid people. I remember when Instagram first came out and people thought it was just gonna wipe out photography and photographers. And if anything, it actually has hopefully helped. The fairy tale ending would be, that's what happens with AI.

Kofi (35:51)
I'll show you, yeah flicker.

in the end still. Yeah.

Mm-hmm

Kurt Maclachlan (36:10)
I think again, you can look at it and go, it's coming regardless. So anybody that doesn't embrace it might struggle more than the people that are embracing it potentially. You've already seen facilities are starting to...

Kofi (36:22)
Uh huh.

Right. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (36:33)
look around and have probably put a bit of R&D into an R&D budget and into looking into these AI possibilities. So it's coming. What could it remove? I'm not sure. But yeah, anyone that can sort of embrace it and people will disagree with that and

Kofi (36:44)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (37:03)
I'm not here to argue on that sense, but I just feel like being realistic about the situation, whether it comes next year or in the next 10 years, it's gonna come. So how do we embrace it and utilize it before people get to the point where, so that we'll look, this isn't being, this is happening, people aren't, you know.

Kofi (37:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (37:31)
welcoming it so then that's actually when people start to look at solutions to remove the human is my is my brain thought process if If people are actually willing to look at it, and I mean how can that aid you as a as a match mover? I don't have a clue But if you could if you can get to that point you know then we might find this a smooth transition if every match mover or

Kofi (37:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (38:01)
every artist in the world was like, no, not using AI. I'm pretty damn sure that people would push on to work out a way to just use it without everyone. So it is my thought process. So if people can get on board with it, then I think that's gonna benefit. I don't think that's gonna happen for a long time though. There's too many intricate pieces to the puzzle, right?

Kofi (38:13)
Yeah. Yeah, sure.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (38:31)
Facilities are so focused on actually just getting work and completing it. You don't have time to just pump into making this a thing. Even the bigger facilities, I'm sure they'll be given an R&D budget by the directors and it might last six months. You ain't gonna crack the code in six months.

Kofi (38:45)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (38:58)
is the reality. So unless these people are willing to invest, you know, to be honest, hundreds of millions into cracking it in VFX, then I don't see it being an immediate concern. But that doesn't mean that someone will.

Kofi (38:58)
show you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. What? How do you think graduates should be positioning themselves coming out of university or choosing a degree that will benefit them in the long run?



Kurt Maclachlan (39:35)
what a degree in visual effects are just in general.

Kofi (39:38)
Yeah, yeah, coming into industry, I guess.

Kurt Maclachlan (39:41)
I think, you know, this is, this might be controversial and I might have a few universities coming after me. But when I, when I look at the courses that, let's look at the UK, when I look at the courses that are happening in the UK versus, you know, let's look at Art VFX in France, you know.

They'll be up for a Bez Award tonight. They will win an award this evening when I'm there. They are that good. And you walk out of that school and the reality is you're in the best possible position to land a job because you're massively punching above your weight at that point.

Kofi (40:18)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (40:36)
So, you know, I don't think, I don't think there's necessarily, um, you know, if you're an individual and, you know, I said in the UK and you're going to university and studying VFX, you know, um, you can go in there and, and push and do, um, do the best you possibly can do.

But I think the course is what actually lets a lot of UK juniors down. Because, you know, they're coming out of university and asking for X rate, you know, versus someone that's come from, like I said, that school in France on the same rate. It's no fault of their own. So I would...

Again, don't know how you do this, but I'd actually love the UK to look at that. And how do we better our courses? How do we get people from the industry coming in? I said, the guys that are, they're working on actual shows.

Kofi (41:57)
Right. Yeah, sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (41:58)
That is what's happening, you know? How do we get people in the UK universities working on actual real life features, episodic commercials? What can we do to make that happen? Because I think that is the biggest thing that's gonna really...

Kofi (42:00)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (42:25)
really help a grad. You know, you can do the old school stuff, you know, I'm a big fan of, you know, knocking on doors, you know, just literally just going to Soho with your CV and your reel and just knock on some doors, you know, the worst thing that's going to happen is, you know, we're not looking to hire right now, but I'd like to think that moment sticks in that company's head.

Kofi (42:27)
Mm-hmm.

Bye.

Yep. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

cause. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (42:55)
I used to be a chef in a past life and that's how I got my first job. I just knocked on doors and was like, can I speak to the head chef, please? And I actually got sent away and told to come back the week after. And I did, and then got the job. Look, that's just a real small, silly example.

Kofi (42:59)
Oh yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (43:20)
But yeah, what can you do that's not about the university courses? Breakdown is everything. On that real, what were you specifically responsible for? Keeping it short and precise. Just having the best possible work that you've done on there.

It doesn't need to be, you know, three, three minutes long of the stuff that you did in year one through to, through to final personally. You know, even, even to senior profiles, I say that, you know, you know, minute, minute and a half of just awesome, awesome work or the best you can possibly put forward. You know, having, having your best projects as soon as that.

Kofi (44:11)
Yeah, sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (44:18)
Vimeo link is opened. Again, say that to not just grads, but to anyone, you wanna be packing a punch from the beginning. You think about how many showreels we as motors look at or when people are hiring directly look at, that initial 10 seconds is, I think, really important to keep people focused.

I think, you know, look, positioning yourself in terms of your rate, you know, or willing to go in as a runner for a period of time, you know, that's something that doesn't happen so much anymore. But it's an interesting thing. You're never going to remove...

that, you know, people, if people are willing, you know, they'll make it happen, you know, whether that's speaking with a recruitment agency, whether that's connecting with as many soups as you possibly can on LinkedIn and producers and wanting to, you know, and badgering them and constantly, you know, messaging, showing that persistence that I want this.

Kofi (45:40)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (45:46)
going and knocking on doors, being willing to relocate. I think as a grad, as a junior, I don't think you're ever gonna be able to replace the learning that you're gonna do inside a facility. If you're a strong mid, if you're a senior, you've been around a bit, remote work is fine, it works.

Kofi (46:04)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (46:16)
I think as a fresh junior, you know, being in the same room as that soup and not having to, you know, email to set up a Zoom to then talk about feedback and just being able to discuss it there and then for everybody in the room that's a junior as well to hear that and, you know, hopefully that soup is delivering that feedback in a positive way, then everybody's learning from it, you know.

If you're just having a one-to-one feedback session, then other juniors aren't hearing this conversation. So, yeah, relocation, pretty cool. You don't need to do it forever. You know, it's just a suggestion.

Kofi (46:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (47:02)
Not a must, but a suggestion.

Kofi (47:03)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. So we've been through the hardest parts of the strikes and the redundant season and artists being off work. So we're now looking up to hopefully things getting better. What needs to be done for this to not happen again, at least in the short term.

Kurt Maclachlan (47:34)
I really hope people can't afford for this to happen in the short term. Like if this happens again, for the same duration of time, we're all finished. Like there's no other scenario. So I would like to think that short term, this isn't gonna happen again. I think the learning curve that I've taken from this is,

Kofi (47:37)
Right.

and my yet

Yeah, for sure.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (48:04)
you know, because you can look at it and go, the riotous riot happened, it's not my fault. It is technically not, you know, Motus's fault that it's struggled through this because it was something that was out of our hands. On the flip side, what I've now really taken on board and has sank in, you know, just prepare for the unthinkable, you know, the absolute unthinkable because...

Kofi (48:13)
Yep.

show you.

Mm-hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (48:32)
because if you do that, then hopefully you'll see through it. Because I don't think this will be the last time, how many times has this happened now? This is the third time it's maybe happened. I think, was it in the, someone who watched this podcast and corrects me, but did it happen in the 60s or the 70s as well? Only for a brief amount of time, but then obviously.

Kofi (48:41)
Yeah, sure.

Mm-hmm.

It's what, second time I think.

Yeah.

I like it.

Kurt Maclachlan (49:00)
2007, 2008 happened. And obviously it's happening now. The world is sort of bouncing in and out of recession regardless. So if you just remove VFX from the equation right now, we're constantly bobbing up and down within the recession. So if there's a huge crash that happens in...

Kofi (49:13)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (49:31)
in a couple of years. Again, it's having that thought process. Something could happen. I'm not saying sort of keep all of your money together and don't spend anything and enjoy life. Absolutely not. But yeah, it's certainly taught me to prepare for the unimaginable because I thought that we were on for the...

Kofi (49:33)
Uh huh. Yeah, I am. Yeah, we're done. Uh huh. Sure.

and yet

Kurt Maclachlan (50:00)
for an amazing year, you know, I was, I was like, wow, you know, things are, things are, things are looking pretty good this year, you know, and, and it just took a nosedive for everybody. Whether you're a big facility, you're a small facility, you're an individual, you're a recruitment person, you know, everyone's taken a hit. And I'm, I think it's, I think it's really honorable, admirable.

Kofi (50:02)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (50:30)
that people have put on a really brave face, I think. You ask people how they're doing and they're okay. But I think the reality is there's a lot of people that are really struggling now. So I think constantly talking as well is an important thing. Not to overthink things too much. Easier said than done when you've got struggles.

Kofi (50:41)
Oh yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

I am. Yeah, for sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (51:00)
but just realize that you're not alone. And you can have a talk to somebody else in the industry and they're having the same problems. But yeah, I think it's pretty cool that as a whole, everyone's stuck at it. People have changed profession. I'm hoping that they come back and they've just done what they had to do.

Kofi (51:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (51:27)
But yeah, I'm really hoping that in a year's time, we won't need to worry about anything else. And if you are worried that that's gonna happen, then just do what you can to adapt rainy day funds and all that kind of jazz. I mean, anything that can help remove unnecessary stress.

Kofi (51:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us a bit about, yeah, motors, like the background and how it started and how people can

reach you.

Kurt Maclachlan (52:03)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, Motus has been going for just over four years now. And, you know, we kind of do what we say on the tin in the sense of, you know, we want to connect artists and facilities together. You know, we work with vendors across the globe, which is awesome. We've worked with...

artists across the globe. We place across all disciplines within visual effects. That's our focus will always be sort of visual effects. Everything that we can take care of within VFX, we absolutely will. And people have their preferences on how they utilize us. We either...

We either do one or two hires because people are a little bit sketchy of how this thing works. Then you've got people that use us for mass crewing because it does work. And I think that's something that's certainly helped us grow our brand and push forward because we're totally at peace with the...

Kofi (53:07)
Thank you.

sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (53:28)
with the process, you know, people have proven that this works on a larger scale. So, um, if you don't want to look into that, absolutely cool. Um, but if you do, it's, it's been proven to work, which is, which is amazing. Um,

Kofi (53:28)
show.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm a beneficiary of it as you've helped me recently, I'll previously find work. So yeah, it's been great.

Kurt Maclachlan (53:49)
Yep.

That's it. Look, our never-ending goal is to have every single person in visual effects know who we are and hopefully trust that we're being genuine and ethical about our process and placing people. I mean, God, I'd wanted to work with you for a long time. All those messages to you over the years like, Hey, Kofi, what's happening, man? When are you becoming available?

Kofi (54:06)
Yeah.

Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (54:21)
So, you know, really, really glad that we got to, we got to work on a few, on a few projects and hopefully there's, hopefully there's going to be, there's going to be more to, more to come. And, and so, yeah, you know, MoTis, we're going to, we're going to keep pushing, keep growing. We've got some, we've got some different thought processes about how we want to approach things this year, you know, which is.

Kofi (54:24)
Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (54:46)
another reason why I'm over in LA right now. And yeah, we're gonna try and push on like everybody else. And if you ever wanna reach out, feel free to do so people.

Kofi (55:03)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And if there's any, any questions that we fail to cover, you're always welcome to leave a comment on the podcast. And I mean, even Curtis is very active on LinkedIn, your updates on LinkedIn during the peak, well, I'd say peak, hopefully the peak of it, of the strikes where...

Kurt Maclachlan (55:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kofi (55:29)
were really helpful. Like a lot of people latched onto it because we just wanted an update, just wanted to know what was going on. And your breakdowns of where the industry was really like beneficial and very helpful. So it was great. Yeah. Hmm.

Kurt Maclachlan (55:47)
I'm really glad that helped. And to be honest, I don't think I was necessarily saying anything that people maybe didn't know, but I think there's been a lot of conversations that have been happening face to face and without everybody kind of seeing it on a larger scale. I found it, I thought it was important to...

Kofi (55:54)
Hmm.

show you.

Yeah, for sure.

Kurt Maclachlan (56:14)
keep people in the loop on what I know anyway, and the way I think I see things going because I think the reality is motors wheels don't turn without artists and facilities. So it's just as important to me to keep myself in the loop and as many people as possible in the loop as I can because we need you guys. So yeah.

Kofi (56:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. I mean, yeah, thank you so much for your time and for shedding light on where we're at and where we're going, I guess. If I can put it lightly.

Kurt Maclachlan (56:56)
No, no, my pleasure. Absolute pleasure. I'm really glad we got to do it and hopefully people that watch it find it interesting,

Kofi (57:01)
Yeah.

Kurt Maclachlan (57:04)
beneficial. And, you know, maybe we're doing another podcast in a year's time or, you know, six months time, and it's going to be a totally different outlook and different talking topics, you know, with everybody happy and in work.

Kofi (57:04)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that'd be brilliant.