The VFX Artists Podcast
The VFX Artists Podcast
Behind The Desk with Hugo Guerra | TVAP EP47
Behind The Desk with Hugo Guerra | TVAP EP47
Hugo Guerra, Director, VFX supervisor, and creator of Hugo's Desk.
In this episode, Kofi chats to Hugo about his career in the VFX industry. Uncovering decisions and steps that have made Hugo the Director and Supervisor he is today.
With an incredible industry footprint, Hugo has a huge voice across the VFX industry, and I felt it quite relevant to learn more about the man behind the glasses, or as our title says, 'Behind The Desk'.
In this episode, we discuss the creative and VFX industry in Portugal, and Sweden, remote working, industry overtime, Hugo's VFX journey in London during his time at The Mill, mistakes VFX artists to make when looking for work, steps they could take to protect themselves from being taken advantage of, best video games, movies, series of 2022, industry-wide issues, how we could tackle them, and many more.
It was a packed and insightful discussion worth listening to the end, as well as one to be shared!
A massive thank you to Hugo for his time and for being such a gem to the industry.
As always, if you liked this episode, please 👍 like, 📝 comment, 📢 subscribe, and 📣 share!
Listen to all episodes on our website
Watch our other videos
📣Building the Biggest VFX Asset Library in The World! ActionVFX CEO Rodolphe Pierre-Louis | TVAP EP46
📣Share Knowledge - Keep Learning with María Carriedo | TVAP EP43
You can find Hugo on the following platforms:
Hugo's Desk
Befores & Afters
Hugo's Desk LinkedIn
Hugo's LinkedIn
Hugo's Twitter
Hugo's Desk Twitter
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Chapters
00:00:00 Coming up...
00:01:32 Introductions
00:03:11 Who is Hugo?
00:10:24 The Portuguese creative industry could be better
00:16:30 Reminiscing the London, Soho VFX industry in the 2000's
00:19:27 The unhealthy traits of the VFX industry - Overtime work
00:32:16 Chasing The Goal
00:37:05 How I ended up in the VFX & creative industry
00:39:37 Love-Hate relationship with the VFX industry
00:46:37 What I teach Nuke Compositors
00:49:49 What Junior compositors need to know when job seeking
01:02:41 Achieving targets on a creative journey
01:05:25 Films on Hugo's list for 2022
01:09:29 Where to find Hugo!
01:10:46 Thank you for watching! Subscribe!
Thank you for your support!
I wouldn't have reached what I've reached now without of being at the Mill and I kind of always tell my students to at least try once in their career to work in a big company because it will build your pipeline it will build your references it will build your contacts as well in networking there's there's a lot of work like that's the fact we are now experiencing one of the biggest Renaissance of visual effects after the pandemic unfortunately unfortunately the industry is too focused in seniors and on experienced people this is a a huge problem foreign a lot of people confuse their passion with their work and I think that is a big issue you know when you go to an interview and you tell them that you are a huge fan of you know no disrespect let's say Star Wars I'm not not I want to make clear I'm not saying ilam does this okay I'm not I'm just making an example so let's say that you go to an interview and you say oh I love Star Wars I've always dreamed working in Star Wars that's my passion I can't believe I'm here I love violam I love this I love Star Wars as soon as you say this to the interviewer like you are on you are you're screwed foreign[Music][Music] because I think I've been looking to find out a bit more about your your immense industry footprint basically I think you you have a great um history and and and journey and you have a great influence so I thought it'd be quite opening to you to hear about your steps through which of course the the successes and possibly the failures have made you the answers that you are today so I'm I'm very much looking forward to to finding out about your your journey say welcome on the show thank you so much for having me thank you so much for having me on the show I I you're being too kind um much much appreciated I really like your show as well so congratulations for doing congratulations for the success of the podcast and for all the lovely guests you always have it's been it's been a pleasure to see your journey as well it's been a pleasure to see the podcast growing as well and seeing so many different voices being heard and being in talking in this podcast which is something always so beneficial to you in the industry so congratulations with that as well coffee uh thank you yeah so so but yeah thanks thank you so much for having me I guess I I don't know like I I don't even know where to start like yeah I mean I guess yeah for I mean I I'm assuming everyone literally knows about you but for anyone that isn't aware of you just tell us who you are and I guess what you do generally oh again you're being too kind uh I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm sure a lot of people don't know who I am so I'll give you a brief introduction my name is Hugo um my name is Hugo Garo I'm Portuguese originally I was born in Portugal um and yeah I've been working in the industry since 99 so it's been like 20 23 years now and that I've been working in the industry I've had a lot of roles in the industry you know like I've been an After Effects artist the motion graphic artist I've been an editor I've been a composer I've been a VFX supervisor director as well and so I have a lot of hats and you know originally originally I did the what we used to do in the 90s which is I did an art degree and so I have a I have like a mass in arts and um so that in Portugal of course and at the time like I my dream was like you know to do video art and to do short films and films and this and that it did well it worked out a little bit while I was in Portugal I did a little bit of that but um yeah I had to pay my bills so I had to like get a real job and I'm joking I'm making a joke of course it is absolutely having a real job it is being an artist but not in Portugal unfortunately in Portugal is a bit more tricky to get a to get a living from being an artist so so yes I left Portugal I left Portugal a long time ago um and I went to Sweden to work as an After Effects artist that was the only thing I knew at the time I started learning After Effects because I wanted to do some of my video Arts so I started learning by myself there was no YouTube at the time no YouTube no no nothing we just had to click until you find the solution um so I I became quite proficient in After Effects um and then I got a job as a compositor effects at that company in Sweden I called animac and then worked for years there became an art director there then I moved to London when I moved to London and I became a compositor at that time I was already playing around with Shake um and then of course that transaction to Nuke I been using nuke since 2005 so it's been uh it's been a long journey I've been using nuke since it's been available to the public um so I'm I am a very old nuke user all the all the obviously people on digital domain or I've been using it for longer than me but I started using nuke 4 and moved to to uh to London and became a senior compositor working in multiple companies I worked at Nexus and then I worked at jellyfish and came into the mill so I was like jumping around from company to company in London between those three companies also teaching at scape a bit uh composting then I kind of like stayed at the Mill the mill offered me a job as a head of nuke over there they were just transitioning from Shake to Nuke so I became the head of new katamil for years uh developed the entire pipeline there and kind of built that department taking over from uh from Darren which was the old like the the the previous ahead of nuke before me and I was first Deputy had a nuke together with one broke house and then he left and then ice became the solo head of nuke there and then developed that pipeline stayed there for years uh then eventually became a VFX supervisor at the Mill went on set a lot supervised a lot of projects led a lot of projects uh for commercials for game cinematics for short films and then eventually I left the mill because it was kind of like not really working out for me anymore because they they you know I really wanted to direct I really wanted to have some creative control in and there's a big big line of people before me to get into that because the mill is such a legacy in big companies so I loved working there but it was tricky for me to have some kind of creative control uh while I was there so I left and became a director um directed a lot of cinematics and game trailers and in-game cinematics for games my passion has always been video games so I kind of like ventured into that and and been doing that ever since I kind of like split my time between being on set supervising either commercials short films or whatever shows up been a very busy time lately if that's for sure and I split my time between that being on set and then directing sometimes commercial sometimes trailers sometimes cinematics and sometimes short films and I've directed now 15 game cinematics so far and um and of course you know I have my side gig which you a lot of people know which is the Hugo's desk YouTube channel that that thing kind of like happened out of nowhere I had no plans uh or intentions to do it someone at the Mill told me like ah you should have put some videos on YouTube and I said ah what is that like I started like I was like seven years ago um no plans whatsoever coffee let's be honest like I had no didn't know what the hell what I was doing and uh started putting videos there and and it growed it's people liked it and it's now a quite successful channel it's not of course I don't have cats on videos so of course I not I don't have millions of views but uh maybe I should start putting cats on my videos but but I I I have enough I'm very grateful for the audience I have and for I I feel like at this stage it's it's it's pretty much the biggest compositing new channel in the world um there's no really other channel that has many views but mostly because it's the oldest one I think that's probably why um and then I as you probably noticed I've for last year I've been joining forces is within files and I've done a podcast as well yeah that podcast has been doing really well with the audience people love it and I have guests sometimes we again we we didn't plan it at all laughing as planned I'll tell you the story behind that thing I was doing I was I was invited by Ian to do a podcast about the First new composite and so he invited me over this was for VFX for his VFX notes podcast and sorry for his before and afters podcast and and we did the podcast we had a lot of fun and then at the end I turned to Yin and I said we should do a podcast like because we you know we we get along well we we know each other for such a long I've known Ian for years so we've been friends for a long time and Ian said yeah that sounds good and then I turned like I think either him or he or high turn and said what about Thursday should we record something first day and that was literally it that's how we started the VFX notes podcast and we recorded on that Thursday and then we've now done 35 episodes yeah yeah I mean how can you stop that of course no I know I've been I'm having fun and that's why I'm doing it exactly yeah and that's why I'm I'm enjoying doing it you know he's a dear friend of mine and we have a lot of fun doing it so I'm sorry that it took me so long to explain who I am and where I came from but I I kind of I guess that's kind of my story in a nutshell uh there's a lot of other things in between here and there yeah and also have a cooking channel that's Anna's uh Channel my wife's Channel she has a vegan and vegetarian cooking channel so I help her with that as well and so yeah I guess check it out as well yeah yeah you should definitely give us the links um but yeah I'm I'm curious about why the um the Portuguese in Industry couldn't couldn't um enhance or or build up your your creative um like um yeah yeah Focus um is is is is it still the same as it used to be or what's yeah yeah so so yeah so unfortunately Portugal is a very small country we only have 99 million people in the country so we have less population than London uh so it's a quite tiny country and with that you know comes of course industry is smaller and there's not a lot it's a little bit better now these days I'm sure if I was in Portugal I probably would be a bit better off now but Portugal has the typical issues of a smaller country it's a the budgets are very small industry is very tiny there's hardly any film business or any filmmaking in Portugal most films in Portugal are are very artistic they're very driven by by scripts and by storytelling they don't really have a lot of effects um you know it's never been really a big thing in Portugal we of course have a thriving commercials uh uh industry but the problem really with Portugal is the payment is very bad it's very late and I've experienced multiple times in Portugal not even being paid you know like like people owing me money and not paying in time or or giving you the the conversation of oh if I knew it was this expensive I would have done it myself those kind of conversations many times I had meetings in Portugal where I would present the the the the quote and I would get an answer like oh for that money I can buy a camera and do it myself and and so I I kind of like stopped really thinking oh I can't change this this is gonna this is gonna take decades to change and there's no way of me fighting it maybe I'll come back later on when when I'm older but but I I kind of gave up and I know I shouldn't I should have stayed but you know I gave up because of my own survival with with my wife as well with Anne and I wanted to do other things and so unfortunately Portugal I have a lot of friends working there it is still the case a lot of what I've said is still present and there's still a lot of problems there although there's a few companies and a few projects being done there so it is it is better but um that's why uh it's it's not a third world country it's not but it's it's the closest you'll get in Europe you know it's like both Portugal and a couple of other countries or or just like not economically ready to have an industry like that you know or even the even the the the pipeline or even like the infrastructure for it you know like it's it's a bit tricky in that case yeah sure yeah oh wow well I yeah I'm hoping I hope I'm hoping it will hopefully as as as you you wish it to be in the future hopefully the well I hope so I think the industry is definitely changing quite a lot and now with remote working and and all that thing like like things it is I have friends of mine that are living in Portugal working for the other companies but that is not really gonna build anything in Portugal you know because if someone is like if someone is in Portugal uh remoting to NPC or to the mill or to a frame store they're not really keeping any money in Portugal they're not really developing anything in Portugal they're just loading a page and the entire company is still on another country so so there's still a long way to go definitely it's a great place for tourism a great place to live it has a really good lifestyle it has good weather it it has better prices than most countries it's a lot cheaper to live there so it definitely is a great place for you to work remotely but um on the other hand remote work is also not not as you know I I have been remote working I've been working remotely since I left the mill so I've been working remotely for seven years even before it was fashionable as it is now um and and I think that unfortunately the industry is still not really ready for remote work you know there some companies are still forcing people to come back and and some companies are still obsessed with the fact that if you want to work remotely you need to be close to the country or close to the company right yes and I understand that because of lag issues and everything but it's still possible so there's not it's not as easy I think Portugal the only way if Portugal really wants to to get into this they need to you know open some studios there they need to like invest some money into that and maybe some pop-up Studios some smaller Studios that's what has to happen and it is happening and then of course the entire the the the cinema in the Stream Portugal as well has to also evolve a bit and and be a bit more digital embrace a bit more visual effects Embrace more color correction Embrace more grading we still have a very old school old-fashioned type of filmmaking over there and so it's it's uh it's gonna take a few generations to go through but uh but you know coffee the problem here I really think it's that Portugal you know I was born in 78 and Portugal only left the dictatorship in 74 so you know Portugal was in a dictatorship on a fascist regime since the 1910s until 1970s so it had 60 years of fascism when where you had 90 percent of the country was couldn't read or or couldn't read so it was like it's a huge gap you know when the 70s open and then we started having freedom and we started having schools and you know I'm the first I'm the first of my family to go to a university you know no one went to universities before that so the country itself is still through this Legacy of of of uh of lack of of education and also fascism obviously it's a lot better now all but but it's going to take decades for it to really be as all the other countries are you know so yeah yeah sure yeah um I ever see I it paints as a picture of um yeah your days um of being in London in London I guess presumably I guess at the time it was a hustling and bustling time in SoHo um and and a lot of the I guess that the generation these days are not able to to imagine or comprehend how how busy it was and just how like amazing and yeah just are able to like tell us how the atmosphere was back then yeah no I I completely get one and I and I also feel I missed it you know because I started doing that in 2009 when I came into London and I think I got the last years of that of the Soho bubble and all the companies being you know the mill was still on Marble Street was still next to frame store all the companies were there and everyone would meet on the same pubs and everyone would meet on the same dinners and restaurants and it was literally one mile wide the entire thing where all the companies were so I think people a few years before were even experienced this even more but it was exciting you know it was super exciting my my dream when I was younger was to work at the Mill I really venerated the mill as the best place in the world and their commercials were mind-blowing I've always been I've always had an affinity to commercials in short-term projects so I've never really you know I never really was that interested in working in film and I always liked the short creative aspect of commercials and the mill was the place you know it was the top play so it was my dream and I I succeeded in in that sense to have my dream realized I never really thought that was ever gonna happen my wife never first stop believing but I never really thought that was gonna ever happen so I was it was a mixture of luck as well to be there in the right time in the right place but it's really hard to describe what it was back then because it was literally you would walk around and jump around from country company to company and everyone knew each other because everyone was just next to each other it's still a little bit like that but but it's a lot less of course because some companies have moved out to NoHo and to other places but at the time we were all very like everyone all the recruitment all the companies all the Departments we would get out and go to the same pubs in the same restaurant so and so a lot of meetings and a lot of development actually actually happen outside the companies you know in restaurants and having a drink outside the pubs and things like that and but I I guess a lot of people ask me about those times um I I don't regret doing them I I owe my career to the mill for sure you know I wasn't I I wouldn't have reached what I've reached now without of being at the Mill and I kind of always tell my students to at least try once in their career to work in a big company because it will build your pipeline it will build your references it will build your contacts as well in networking but I I I kind of felt really burned out that was the that's why I left you know that's why um I think unfortunately these companies in London they are not very healthy and you know they have very uh strange approach to work everything is a bit brute forced there's too many long hours there's no overtime pay so there's a lot of problems on that and I kind of like left the mill a bit because of that because not just because of the overtime that was in existing also because of the long hours because I would work you know in a normal day 10 10 hours 12 you know it would never really be eight and sometimes I I've worked like at the Mill I I did 50 hour days you know in 40 hour days and things like that I I I don't regret being there but I wish that I that I would be more um I wish that I would that I would have been better to myself you know because I now feel tired and I I have a lot of problems that were developed because of those years there you know I have back problems I have sciatica problems I have eye problems I have optical nerve damage I have like headaches all these things are things coming from working too much and not sleeping and spending let me let me give you the approach whenever you work on a company like this on a top level like this it's like working on a f like on the fire brigade there's a fire every day you know like you would walk in and there's already a problem going on even as you walked into the building and so the the the the stress levels were very very high uh I'm paying for that now I really hope that anyone listening to this hope that they can take more care of themselves and think which I didn't do I wish I did so really be uh like really try to sleep as much as you can try to rest and try to spend more time with your family I wish I would have done those things back in the day yeah and there's nothing wrong with with working light and working over time I feel like sometimes it's necessary especially if it's a creative project but it was too much it was too much in a row yeah I think most of us are paying those consequences now um and I think those times are over really I I think it's gone now like it's not gonna happen again and companies are still work still treat their employees like that they they they're going to be out of business soon because people just leave so yeah yeah yeah I mean yeah unfortunately it was a thing of the norm I guess like no one really bashed I I really complain about it no I do remember yeah I do remember many days because I was I was in commercials I graduated from an animation degree in 2011 and like you the mill was the studio that I really really really like love and really wanted to work for and I did work experience with them and then I came out of University and I was hoping to to work with them at that time but obviously they didn't have a position open so I couldn't work with them but um of course I had my my experience and my my time in the commercials industry post-production and just yeah longer long hours were just expected like weekends we're just expecting weekends literally producers would just yeah email it every day every Friday yeah it would always be like on Fridays I know but it's it's it's a shame because obviously I I you know I totally get that sometimes it's impossible to go away I'm not a strong believer that we should abolish over time and we should abolish uh working uh um late because I still as a creative person I still feel like that sometimes creativity um has no schedule you know sometimes it does work better if you work for a longer time it does work better if you stick around a bit more you know I I don't believe that any of the biggest commercials in the world or even the biggest films in the world or even the best video games in the world were ever made in time you need to have some level of stress in some level some level of of extra time because you need to like polish it and go the extra mile so I still think that that's still necessary but it's just too much there's a little limit and and I I hope that companies are listening now I I'll tell this coffee like I I will never ever in my life ever again go back to a company where I'm in a in a in an office in in a table like working 12 hours 10 hours you know I have my own company now I work uh with collaboration with other companies and I work in projects either as a collaborator or as a supervisor uh I've been very blessed to of course have that now but you know I'm never going back to this normal nine to five factory work mentality because I don't live in the 19th century I live in the 21st century so for me I would rather do something else if I had to go back to it you know so because there was other things in life and and if anything like I've been working robot for seven years I've done 15 game cinematics that I directed and supervised while I was in my house it's definitely possible to do good work from home um if you have things in place in the pipeline in place which I have and I don't think the I really strongly think the future is in in uh and you know like in artists opening their boutiques in their shops and having there's always going to be big companies but I think there's a lot of work out there and there's a lot of space for smaller companies to pop up because not only I think I will ever go back but I I really advise everyone as soon as they can to work for themselves because the that's what I've done a long time ago because it makes a huge difference you know you do your own schedules you can control your own income you can control what you invest on and you are not living on this process of trying to pay the bills and the salaries you know so so I feel like I feel like there's definitely a place um yeah for that you know in the future yeah yeah definitely yeah I mean yeah in terms of um working late I guess I mean sometimes we have no choice until especially being a junior for example you have you have the pressure to to impress I'm not impressed by maybe impressed as well but you have the the pressure to to deliver that's probably the right word um and so yeah you feel like you have to put in your hours and and just yeah make sure you're not being the first person out I mean it possibly probably is still happening because Juniors coming in fresh and they have a lot to learn and they make a lot of mistakes and they have to ask a lot of questions they they probably have to ask um yeah stay much much longer say yeah I mean yeah yeah which is which is a you know I I you know coming from from Sweden working there it was such a different experience because they have a very different approach to life in the work itself and uh you know when I came to the mill you know I would see the runners having to stay late to learn Flame or to learn nuke and they would have to stay you know they would have worked eight hours a day as a runner and then they would still have to stay another five hours or four hours to learn a software that I don't think should happen I I don't believe that that's the correct way to go you know like I feel like that has always been a problem for me personally and and I always would go got into a lot of fights at the middle because of that because I I would really clash with the production and I would really clash with the management regarding this because I really strongly believe that people should learn in the job and they should actually work and get paid for that and so I I was always rushing people into production even when my supervisors and my my well I I didn't really have to answer to a lot of people the only person I really had to answer was of course the head of 2D in general and of course the CEO of the company and I and sometimes they would get a little bit mad at me but I tried my best to explain my position but I would always rush Juniors to production regardless if they knew the software or not because that's the fastest way to learn never really believe this idea of you working the whole day starting serving coffees and then you you go in and learn at the Night Main problem with this for me is because we're not an um we're not an Hotel you know I sometimes felt the mill was an Hotel because we had so much catering because of clients and I I never really fully understood this really stupid explanation of yes you know if you work in catering serving the clients you will learn a lot on your no you won't like you're just serving coffees so I always thought that they should hire actual people from catering to do that you know like people that know what they're doing and and then actually get the Juniors to work in in smaller things you know like smaller rotos and small cleanups and small processing that's what I used to do in my department my department had like at its peak like 30 people and I would always have three four five uh Juniors or runners or someone building inside and I must say some of them are now really successful compositors you know working in Industry so it worked it worked for them to learn in the job but I was mentioning Sweden because that is something I learned in Sweden because in Sweden first of all they don't really work overtime they they are a family driven Society a lot of people have a lot of kids and so they a lot of times at four o'clock in the afternoon my company was empty that was it like everyone would just leave really early they would start really late early as well because of the sun and the light so seven o'clock in the morning would be the starting point the starting date and that's four everyone would leave because they would have to go and get the kids and most people have three kids four or five sometimes even more so it's a family driven Society the weekends were sacred no one would work the weekends I would never really work late if we had to deliver something here's a here's a an idea we would call the clients and ask them for more time and they would generally say yes because they were also doing the same so it's it's a completely different Society there was never this kind of like gigantic rush to uh to kind of like deliver for the sake of it and I feel like obviously a lot of studios in in in Sweden now there's a lot of visual effects Studios I'm sure they are working much more than this and they work a lot a lot of long hours I don't I what I mean is like they still work long hours but they have a different approach they do a little bit of that a little bit less of it they I feel like they respect a bit more the working the workers of the companies and I think just just the different mindset all together because it's so connected with family maybe maybe it has changed I mean of course my experiences when I was there which was between 2006 and 2010 so obviously maybe it has worse now or better I hope it's better uh but um but I I feel like London in the London industry has a lot to learn from from European companies and from Nordic companies because they do work in a different way and they're a lot more efficient as well sometimes I I would feel that sometimes companies in London were not that efficient I always felt like sometimes we were doing a job we would be re like like doing the wheel again you know we would always uh never really have a a sense of building something for the future it was always like a shortism you know like always short-term and never never long term um and I think other countries that I've worked on in Europe are a bit more connected with long-term uh you know I think there's something in between I guess we can't be as Extreme as nor the countries but also we can't be as Extreme as London you know like it's a bit like I feel there's something in between that can be used here for the best um obviously I'm saying all these things and I understand that right now I as the time we are talking on this podcast there are enormous issues in the industry uh every almost every week there's like flaggings of what Marvel did or Disney did or this did or did that like and I know that the problems are a lot more deep than the simple explanation I'm giving here so I don't yeah so I dispense the hate because there's nothing I'm not explaining the whole thing in in a row but I feel not that I feel that we do need to change something because um the problems have been systematic for years and years and years and yeah we keep talking about them but we never really get to fix them I think yeah yeah yeah it's a shame but yeah so um yeah you've been you've been through uh many studios um as well as on many rows um as you mentioned do you think that you were chasing a goal or some sort of achievement um basically I'm I'm just wondering at what stage a VFX artist goes from maybe chasing a dream or go to to the work to the job becoming work work yeah yeah so I'm just wondering yeah I guess what kept yeah what kept you going what kept you going and do you think yeah you you were chasing something well I mean I I think I started as most people starting this business wanting to direct and to do something uh creatively and obviously that's probably not going to happen and I've well I've directed multiple things and I can call myself I can call myself a director because I have directed multiple cinematics and trailers and things but I don't really feel like I am a really true director because I haven't done a film yet um you know like a proper film I I did short films of course but so that's that's always been my goal all my life I always wanted to direct I'm not sure I will ever be able to get there because I feel like I feel like it's a very difficult task it requires it it doesn't you know I have enough strength on me to make it happen and it doesn't but it doesn't just depend on on the amount of commitment or even the amount of work you put in it also has an enormous amount of luck thrown into it you know obviously I would also need to be lucky to be in the correct place in the correct time to get actually funding and to actually get the correct people around me to actually make it happen I kind of feel like maybe someday it will happen that's still my objective but right now uh in 2022 if someone is watching this uh in 2027 or 2030 so we are in 2022 right now I feel that I am very very happy with what I've achieved I'm extremely lucky that I've that I actually work on something that I love I cannot complain at all you know I'm so lucky and I'm so blessed uh coming from a really you know I came from a poor background I had no money when I was young you know my mother helped me a lot to try to get where I am and now you know of course I have a full supportive of Anna my wife as well and they like like she is the reason why I'm still kind of doing things and she's my inspiration for all this but I I feel like if I get to do a film I'll be even more happy but I am already happy if I had to die tomorrow I would be super happy with everything I've achieved you know because I am a simple man you know I I I can't complain man I I work in a computer doing cool things to pixels and I'm literally playing like I used to when I was a kid you know when I was a kid I used to play a lot with Legos and GI Joes making scenes in battles I'm kind of still doing the same I'm just like doing them in a computer and so I can't yeah especially now especially in the UK you know with all the hardship that people are passing through now and all the problems we're having with financial issues and the the the the the the the crisis with with electricity and gas and everything I can't complain ever you know because so many other people are so much worse at the moment than me and I I can't I am so blessed and I I try my best to help as much people as I can and you know I always try to do that uh even on for example I on my online course I'm always giving it away I'm always raffling it out I'm always I have multiple students that I gave like I have hundreds of students that I gave away the course for free try to to help as much people as possible because I feel so lucky and so fortunate to be in this position so maybe if something I can do a film yes that would be even better because that was always my dream to do a film but if if I'm now going to just focus on YouTube and do the podcast I will also be extremely happy and I I still can say that I still composite every day you know I still work in the Box I'm so happy with that I will never stop doing that I really love working in in Nuke and I really love working in DaVinci and and working in After Effects I still do in Photoshop still do this to this day so everything I do even if I'm directing something I'm still comping some of it I'm still kind of directing that side of the project because I don't want to lose don't want to lose connection to what I do you know so so I I will always do that I will always be in the Box doing the job the shots with someone else yeah sure uh yeah so I I guess this was a very long answer sorry but I to answer your question I'm very grateful and happy and content to what I've done you know so yeah yeah can you tell us what originally Drew you to to to the to the industry is like well inspired your yeah you're curiosity yeah for film and I guess I guess it's I have a different answer you know most people always say oh Star Wars oh this and that like I don't really have though I I mean I like Star Wars but it's okay it's not that good you know like it's it's okay I used to like it more when I was a kid you know I I don't think it's that fantastic it's not that amazing I have the references and I I when I was younger I really just wanted to direct I never really never really thought I was ever gonna do the effects at all um I was very good with cameras always been when I was young you know my my mother gave me a camera really young and I even when I was a teenager I had a video at camera so I used to film a lot I filmed a lot and I and that's always been presence in my life I've always had cameras I have tons of cameras I still have all cameras keep buying old cameras as well that I used to have so so I always filmed always liked to film my own stuff some of my short films I filmed myself as well um so I think it came from there it came from my love of filming cinematography and love from certain directors you know I I was truly obsessed by Stanley Kubrick when I was young I am still a bit but I now have other obsessions as well but my main thing really was Stanley Kubrick it was David Lynch and David Cronenberg those were like my three best ever favorite directors I have all their Blu-rays I have all their books you know I truly adore these three directors and I and I you know I I kind of feel that that was my biggest inspiration so it's it's very off from visual effects it's a much more artistic driven and cinematography driven side of things I think the the composting which most people know me as a composer because I became so successful in Nuke but I actually think of myself of a lot of other things I'm I feel like I edit a lot and I film a lot as well so I feel like like those were my main Inspirations filmmaking and itself you know the visual effects came kind of like as a as a means to an end because I I had to make money and so I kind of felt I was always good with computers and games and this and that so I kind of like learned After Effects really easily at the time I was a sponge at the time when I was young and so so I kind of like felt it that how that's how how my inspiration came about you know mm-hmm okay yeah sure yeah I am are you able to tell us what you love about the industry and me possibly maybe what you you at least enjoy well I about yeah I I really you know I don't want to sound like an old man but I've been hating and hating more the industry as time progresses like I I still work on it and of course I'm still on set all the time and I'm still doing stuff I'm currently supervising to commercials and I'm getting ready for another cinematic and I've been on set a few times for first for supervising some commercials as well so I'm still actively working in the industry but but I I I just am so disappointed by the end of this ramp so disappointed not just for the way artists are treated and even the way I was treated when I was younger as well and you know like I feel so disappointed the industry doesn't really learn from its mistakes that's one side of it and then the second side of it is for me I really truly think that some of the worst films ever made were these VFX driven films and I I feel like they're just not good enough they're just not good they don't have good stories they don't have and it's very rare that we do get like a very good visual effects driven film like we used to you know when I was young we would have James Cameron's films we would have Steven Spielberg's films we would have even Kubrick films a little bit not the effects but effects of course and I felt like they really knew how to use all the tools on their disposal to do a good story and a good film and I feel today okay don't mean to criticize anyone but I I feel like today it is too driven through content creation and corporate greed and it's really not really touching me at all most of these TV shows and films they suck like I mean come on and it's so rare I get so happy when I see something amazing with husband's legs now recently I did an episode of the podcast with Ian about nope nope was an example of how you use VFX on a film it's amazing and it's completely invisible and and it's it's completely merged into the story that's in the great example we've had many examples over the years and we know this is possible I mean James Cameron did it decades ago you know with Terminator so I feel like yeah I feel bad that we are devoting so much time to do these piece of crap films and I I I wish that there was more quality control I understand it's a business I understand they have to pay the shareholders but still man you can still make money and do a good story that that's still possible you can there's so many examples of the in the world of things like that that made a lot of money but we're still good you know so uh so yeah I I and I know taste is completely completely you know everyone has its own taste I understand a lot of people do like these films but as someone older you know I'm now 44. I've seen I can't unsee better films I've seen before so yeah yeah crave me craving for it yeah yeah I feel like I've recently so yeah which sucks you know because you devote yourself so much and maybe you've you've done an astonishing CG scene you've done an astonishing composite but then it's on this piece of crap film and you're like oh my God this film sucks and I just want to just never want to see it again and I I yeah I don't want my name on it yeah and that's a shame that that is I think that's a true shame and and yeah yeah yeah it's a shame because I mean as as they say when when you have potentially too much resources it's just the creativity and yeah yeah the the like film the the the cinema history is filled with films that had no resources whatsoever in Against All Odds made amazing achievements you know like if you just look at Terminator of the Matrix the first Matrix and you know all these films had almost no money whatsoever and they still achieved something that was Monumental in and influenced all the films that came after so I feel like there's definitely still possible and I'm hopeful that sometimes it happens but uh you know and and don't even get me started with the vitriol that is happening in social media about visual effects as well not only the films yes the film do suck but there's also this entire world of Twitter accounts and Twitter people kind of like just [ __ ] all over visual effect just because the sake of it try trying to pretend that it used to be so much better before when we had like physical effects and this entire Narrative of everything is physical this entire Narrative of hiding the visual effects just like it's happening with stranger things 4 and thinks the same thing happened with Top Gun like like this this this this this Obsession of marketing and these companies to push this agenda that it was all done for real it really bothers me um because I I I come from I come from a time where you know I'll give an example you know you go and watch the Blu-ray of Twister for example which is from 2000 and 2000 2001 and it actually has an audio commentary with the VFX supervisor it's like that is unheard of like it's rare to even have that these days and I I feel like there was a lot more respect for this craft at that time than it is now yeah definitely I obviously there's some exceptions like I was so happy that eternals had the VFX supervisor on the commentary you know like Steve Cerati is actually on the commentary with the director with Chloe and it's a great audio commentary and that audio commentary is actually on the digital version of the film as well not just the Blu-Ray so so that's that's a one-off that happened I hope that more happens like that but we there is there is a huge disrespect for the craft right now which you're not seeing on the makeup Department you're not seeing out the physical on the set design all those departments are are considered really cool and everyone loves the work that they do but there is like this enormous amount of hate on VFX right now which is Created from this Twitter world of like daily getting angry about everything and and it's it's it's a real shame so you asked me what was the positives and negatives right now I can only think of negatives there's not much positives back then but I don't want to hear I don't want to sound like an old man but I think I don't think I'm alone on this I don't think so yes okay yeah tell us about yeah your courses and yeah you get it who goes desk I mean yeah oh yeah yeah so I I I don't I don't mean like to to to promote much but yes I do have a new course um it's available right now it's quite long it's like 150 glasses it's like 75 hours long it takes a long time to do it um it's not a fast course no it takes a long time to watch it um so yeah people are interested I do that course I'm always updating the course as well we always have we always drop new classes into it um so it's kind of like a ongoing thing since 2018 you know since I started in 2018 with that course and it's still it's been like four years and I just been like it's been like a project ongoing project that I do with my students I have 1 200 students right now on that course and we have a very thriving Discord Channel where we all talk and we have calls and we have showroom reviews together with the students a lot of my students since the course has been going on for four years I have a lot of students that now work on the top companies and they work on a lot of different companies they sometimes message me and and tell me where they are now I don't I don't I don't wanna I don't want to like spend too much time talking about that so so yeah so I do have a course then of course the the podcast is is something like I said not planned at all and this is something you created with me and Ian files please go and support the Ian at before and afters he's doing an amazing job reporting in the effects because we unfortunately kind of lost a bit of that when cinefe went over and and I'm really glad that Ian is kind of taking that mantle and having a magazine and actually writing so much good stories and so much of it is so active yeah yeah I don't know how you I mean you both I don't know how you do I don't know how he does it no he's he's something else he does like posts and and articles every day and I'm like come on man like I stop stop making everyone look bad you know like no but yeah so it's it's uh it's nice to be involved on that and as you probably noticed on our podcast we are always trying trying to to show the truth as much as we can we show as much breakdowns as possible we talk it through in reality we don't hold back on anything and we try to really this like like really to put a light into the fact that both physical and digital are living together in filmmaking and this problem is really just created outside the set because while we're producing while we're on set and while we're doing the production everyone is just working together and everyone respects each other this is nothing more than just a couple of Click bites uh websites and clickbait Twitter accounts to try to to earn clicks because of of this you know which is not beneficial to the industry but we try to we try to like uh this magnify as much as we can me and Ian on that sense you know so yeah yeah sure yeah yeah so um yeah through your your years of experience as as an artist and a tutor um and of course with the with the climate change in the industry um what advice would you give to upcoming compositors into the industry in terms of like what key things do you look for maybe say in a junior compository you mean like regarding you you mentioned climate change you mean regarding in what sense um so I guess remote working right now so if you can if you compare how we used to go through the industry through being a runner maybe from being a postgraduate going through as a runner and then of course working through the Departments and then going officially going into the department that you're looking to create and see um whereas now everything is digital and you have to that you have to like finding work these days is quite different and yeah yeah it is yeah so so I guess I guess the first thing I would say is that there's there's a lot of work like that's the fact we are now experiencing one of the biggest uh Renaissance and visual effects after the pandemic there's just way too much work I get emails every day from companies asking me if I know someone and keep directing them to my students directing to other people there's a lot of work out there so much that it's not even possible for me to even keep up like I I have to turn down jobs I can't even take them sometimes yeah um unfortunately unfortunately the industry is too focused and seniors and on experienced people this is a a huge problem you know because back in the day you know for example when I was running the nuke department at the Mill I would a lot of times you know invest on Junior people to try to do jobs and because they were in the building sometimes it didn't work out sometimes it did it depends on the job it depends on the person of course but majority of the time it worked out uh these days when people are working remotely I think unfortunately there's a bit of less less of that in the companies because the companies are just wanting people to come in do the job and go away and again it's the shortism like the short perspective of all of this because if you don't develop these Juniors we're going to have even a worse problem later on because as we progress with more and more and more and more films we're going to need more people not less so and the seniors most of them some of them are leaving some of them are going somewhere else some of them you know I'm not a full-time senior anymore you know I'm I'm doing whatever I want I'm picking my jobs sometimes I stay away when I look at a job when I get an offer of a job and I look at it and I say yeah this is going to be a piece of [ __ ] I don't even do it like it's like if I can smell that it's going badly already I kind of stay away so the industry can't afford to not train more people I know some companies are doing it and some companies are really trying their best but I don't think it's enough um so I guess I guess my like it's hard to give advice of course but because there's so much you can do with I think younger people really need to like Focus their attention I feel in smaller companies at this time at this time and then maybe start there because then they can start there build the portfolio and then maybe move to a bigger company I'm not entirely sure the big companies are fully available at my at the moment because of the remote working I feel like sometimes they are not available um to to actually go in and I think that I guess the best advice I would give to anyone starting is to really take care of yourself and that means not on a egotistic way but on this on a team level so you are much stronger if you all get together and this has to do with the fact that you know if you have issues on the industry you need to like talk to other people and try to to get more people on board to fight on the same Corner this all comes down to like not just like making sure everyone is aware of the issues that are happening but also like it has to do with unions as well I feel like people should be in a union because you know I don't really understand why people keep saying that we don't need the union or we shouldn't have a union every other department has a union so if it works for them it surely works for us and I understand that some people are afraid of being blacklisted but but if everyone is in a union then it's not a problem because you can't Blacklist the entire Ministry so if we reach like 80 or 90 or 75 percent of of unionized then what are they gonna do they're not gonna do anything because they they have to get to do the work anyway I think we should show our strengths in numbers and in every single country like Britain has a union a visual effects Union I am part of it very proudly and I think everyone should I don't even need to be on it because I have my own company but I am still on it anyway and and I I I strongly suggest everyone to be on it I know other countries might not have a union but maybe they have a similar Union that could work as well uh I'm sure surely you can find a union that could at least help you uh with certain things and and people just need to be more aware of what they're signing up to you know like I that's one thing the union really helps me and helps most people with you know helping with contracts having lawyers going through them checking your actual rights because man I'm not saying companies are not doing it in purpose they're just trying to get more money they're trying to to appease the shareholders and get more profits so they're going to do what they're going to do they're not going to do it for you they don't really care about you at all they don't try to help you they are just there to earn money and so they're gonna hire you're going to do a service and then you're gonna go away you are the one that has to take care of yourself you are the one that has to read the contract make sure you have the terms you want if you don't like the terms walk away there's other jobs you know or you can ask for the terms to be changed I've done that many times even in the past when I was not even that successful I used to do that as well there's nothing you can always ask you know and get some help so I think I hope that the industry can stick together a bit more and I feel like if we do stick together a bit more kind of feel that we can probably build a better industry in the future for the Next Generation so late for our generation but maybe the next one you know yeah definitely yeah wow great you you touched on the the next topic that I was looking to ask you on but basically I was curious about your opinion on the common mistakes that yeah you see Junior compositors make um yeah with maybe sure reels and confidence and negotiation of salaries to Studios but yeah yeah yeah yeah I I I I I guess I guess you know like I've done many sessions of showroom reviews on Twitch on YouTube and also on on my channel so people can go and look for those and and read what I usually say and I even have a video about show reels on my YouTube channel so the advice of the Show reel is always the same one you know everyone says the same things have your best work at the beginning make it short blah blah blah it's always the same thing so there's no no reason for me to repeat what everyone else has already said and it's very easy to find this information online and if you don't find it just message me very happy to Google it for you it's not a problem at all so I feel like the the I do feel the biggest mistake really that people do is to try a lot of people confuse their passion with their work and I think that is a big issue you know when you go to an interview and you tell them that you are a huge fan of you know no disrespect let's say Star Wars I'm not not I want to make clear I'm not saying ilm does this okay I'm not I'm just making an example so let's say that you go to an interview and you say oh I love Star Wars I've always dreamed working in Star Wars that's my passion I can't believe I'm here I love violam I love this I love flowers like as soon as you say this to the interviewer like you are on you are you're screwed because now they know that you have no leverage whatsoever it's like okay he's gonna do whatever he takes to be here he's gonna accept whatever terms we give him so if he asks for I know 250 pounds a day or if you ask for 300 pounds a day they're probably gonna say ah you know we can only do 200 and what are you gonna do you're gonna say yes because you've you've established that you will do anything to work on this thing so I really advise people to not take their emotions with them you know obviously the best approach would be for you to have an agent and the agent takes care of the commercial the contract obviously I understand that that is not a reality it's too expensive and we are not actors so obviously an agent would be better but if you can at least become an agent of yourself and so when you go to the interview make proper questions and don't show your hand don't show that you would do anything to work on this film don't make those kind of Demands because you're gonna just look weak into the negotiation so make sure you are getting paid what you're worth you know I I've been on so many uh interviews where you know I was interviewed and this was after I left the mill and you know I was interviewed by a few companies that wanted me to come in to work in film and I came in and they would turn to me and I would say my right and then I would say they would say oh you know that's a commercial rate you need we're going to pay you less because it's film and my answer would always be the same like well you know I'm doing the same software working on the same thing so I'm not going to lower my right so goodbye and I would leave and so I I feel like you need to like stand up for yourself and know your worth and for you to know your rate it is not as hard as you think for example the union has a red card you can talk to them the rate card they have is a bit low but you know you can put a bit more on top you can always ask for more and lower it you know that's not a problem you can always negotiate you can also contact friends that work in the industry you can contact people in LinkedIn you can contact your teachers you can contact your mentors I am certain that you can find the appropriate rates for what you're going to do on the appropriate country and never budge like okay this is the value I put on my work in my on my I am good enough to ask for this money they're gonna have to say yes if they don't say yes then I'm going to go to another company and I can assure you there's other companies and then there's another one and another one so so I feel like I really think the the you know I don't want to spend too long on this but I feel there's a lot of problems that could happen a lot of issues and you ask me what are the usual problems people do mistakes I feel like there's a lot of mistakes but I think this is one of the most important one don't confuse your passion with your work because it's not the same thing you know like your hobby is one thing you can love films but you don't have to work for free because if you work for free it's a hobby it's not work so it's like it it's and I'm not saying you worship people are working for free but they're working for too little money because even if you're getting paid remember that okay imagine you're getting paid 300 a day okay and you think to yourself oh that's pretty good but then look at the terms okay do they have overtime is it 88 hours is it 12 is it 10 is it no hours mentioned on the contract because remember if you're getting paid 300 a day but then you do 15 hours then you're not getting paid 50 for 300 a day then and you're probably getting paid 150 a day because you are working 16 hours on that day so really do the math and if possible show it to a lawyer you know a contract lawyer I know it's a bit expensive but or maybe if you have a friend that it is a lawyer they can help you but it would be worth it I can tell you also if you become part of the for example the union the British Union the the the the the the the back to in in in in London they have lawyers that can help you I've used them multiple times like I and they're they are free like they're not going to charge you anything they're part of the Union so there's there's always ways for you to kind of take care of yourself protect yourself because these companies don't care they don't you know they're not doing it in purpose they're just trying to earn money you know yeah yeah yeah good points yeah yeah um how do I say yeah have you achieved everything you've always wanted to see in the industry and yeah if not what are you missing you mean like if I've done everything I wanted is that what you mean achieve achieve that yeah I guess there's a different yeah there's a difference between doing and achieving so I guess when you set off you had probably Ambitions or goals or targets to to reach yeah I mean I've answered that before already like you know I answered that previously a couple of uh like about half an hour ago I feel like my achievement was always to direct the film and to actually be part of that I have not achieved that yet uh but but I I have I have achievements and goals yes I wish I would direct a few more cinematics of games that I truly love I would love to do that you know so that I have so that I can play with the source material that I actually really enjoy I really would like to kind of like learn you know a few more things in my lifetime I would love to like know a bit like a lot more about unreal and I would like like to know more about CG as well which I don't know enough you know I wish I would do that but it's always a learning experience I'm always learning every day I always have books all the time you know like I I feel like you know like currently you know I always have I have books on my shelves I always have like books everywhere you know like and I'm always like reading whenever I'm checking your render okay I'm gonna read this chapter or something so it's like there's so much out there for you to learn and develop um my passion is filmmaking so I usually am surrounded by books of filmmaking but um but you can always find other passions if you love other things but I I I truly believe I will never achieve everything I want that's never the case because for me personally I'm one of those people that always want to do more and more and more so I never really I kind of you know those people that you see on when they die you know like uh this actor died when he was 99 and and you see go to this filmography filmography and he's done a film like six months before I feel like I'm probably gonna just be keep working and working working then I'm just gonna die that's it I'm not really thinking I'm gonna retire or you know I feel like this is my life and this is what I do this is what I love I've been very very fortunate to do something I love which is very very fortunate for most of us in this industry you know so yeah so I'm not gonna stop doing it that's for sure yeah yeah great yeah thank you for your time yeah um but yeah um before we we conclude um just because I know I know you love your movies right what movies are you like can you tell us what movies you're looking forward to in yeah I guess the rest of this year and 2023 and which movies or series you've you've enjoyed so far this year yeah so this year um I definitely think for me personally the best visual effects film of the year was RR uh which is a Telugu film from India and it's by far I think an achievement in filmmaking with visual effects and I I hope it gets nominated for the Oscar it won't unfortunately I don't think it will not even India submitted that to the Oscars so not even they did it to themselves so I feel like there's a bit of a lot of a lot of countries don't really respect visual effects enough to kind of do that unfortunately so I think RR I really advise everyone to go and see it it's on on Netflix it's it's amazing it's astonishing I've watched it four times now uh I've done podcast episodes about it I really love that film that's like by far my my favorite VFX films of the year um I then I would say that I really really liked Top Gun I thought Top Gun was a breath of fresh air the film is nothing to write mode the home amount it's not an award-winning film but I have never felt like I did when I was watching out in the cinema especially on IMAX it is a a really it's an experience to watch it on IMAX it is breathtaking it's an it's it's a true cinematic experience to watch it on the biggest screen you can find the film itself the story itself it's okay but the the moments of dog fighting are just like my God they were amazing um so I guess the last film I would say I was I really liked Crimes of the future from David kreinberg we already established that I David Cronenberg is one of my favorite directors of all times that film is not for everyone but I just watched it I really loved it really liked nope as well that was a very good film so those were my favorite films TV shows though I'm really enjoying the Sandman I think it's an astonishing TV show um I really think it's really good um what are the TV shows I've watched so many TV shows this year like I I think I felt like I've watched more TV shows than anything else um but yeah come like out of like like right now I think I think Sandman is the biggest surprise of the year for me uh yeah so and I'm still watching it I haven't finished it I'm just watching it now yeah yeah I what are you looking forward to I um no not really I think Avatar is going to be fine it's gonna be okay it's gonna be a an animation film um I know we are focusing on films in in television but I I spend a lot of time playing games as well so I for me video games has always has always been a very big part of my life so so I I always spend a long time no currently I'm playing replaying it's been the first time now replaying The Last of Us Part One in PS5 that is an astonishing game it's still one of the best games ever made from Naughty Dog there's gonna be a TV show from HBO as well uh which is gonna come out soon um but yeah I I feel like like I should shut out that game as well that game was astonishing and there's a lot of other games this year as well that I played of course I'm a big sucker for for cars as well so I I synced in a lot of hours to Gran Turismo 7 as well because I loved some game I have a wheel and everything I always roll Facebook yeah I need to get one for my son he's he's he loves it yeah yeah they're it's a my it's a game changer man the wheel the one I bought has force feedback as well it's like my God it like feels like you're actually racing it's amazing yeah yeah yeah well so yeah before we we conclude this yeah tell us where where people can find you and yeah who does desk and VFX yeah so so yeah people can find me on Twitter uh I have two accounts there I have Hugo C Guerra which is my main account um and then I have Hugo's desk which is my my uh my YouTube channel account that's my Twitter I'm mostly active on Twitter you can also find me on LinkedIn of course as well very active there uh just uh holler you know um uh try try to get 20 000 followers so I only I have 19 800 now so I'm almost there on twenty thousand so trying to get there uh then of course you could ask on YouTube uh you use desk on Instagram you use this on Facebook I have all the social media cover there uh and then the VFX notes podcast is on my YouTube channel um and of course um I have also all sorts I do streams every month as well on YouTube with new composting I'm going to start next month again going back to my shower review streams as well that I used to do years ago I'm returning to them next month as well yeah that's that's really it if you find me if you put Yugo Garo Hugo's desk on YouTube on Google you'll find me you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah amazing well thank you so much it's been it's been it's been a pleasure to to have you on the show and just oh thank you so much thank you so much for having me and I apologize I speak too much and I I I'm Portuguese so thank you thank you so much for taking the time in and no it's great it's great to hear from from your point of view in terms of I mean of course you're very passionate about about what you do as well as you care about the in the industry and the well-being of of the artists and your your you fight for everyone so it's really good to to see you know your point of view so thanks thanks for saying that thanks[Music]