The VFX Artists Podcast
The VFX Artists Podcast
Creativity, Money and the Freelance Career, with Courtney Pryce | TVAP EP 48
This week we caught up with Courtney Pryce. The industry veterans know him from his years as a Creative Specialist at Foundry.
We cover a lot of ground, beginning in the "Rock&Roll" years of London VFX in the early 2000s. Also covering the role of the Creative Specialist and the secrets of financial stability as a Compositor. Courtney worked with UK Film and TV industry Union, BECTU, to put together a suggested rate card for freelance and contract staff in VFX. We get to engage with the methodology and consequences of open disclosure of the often taboo subject of the pay scale.
Courtney also engaged strongly with the industry-wide discussion of racism sparked by the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020. We don't shy away from tackling the issue of racism and nepotism in the workplace and there is a forthright but ultimately optimistic discussion.
Nevertheless, we never lost sight of Courtney's key skills as a solid professional compositor and reactive as he shares a wealth of knowledge that will benefit artists of all levels and from all backgrounds.
You won't want to miss out on this discussion!
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Watch our other videos
📣The Effective Freelance Compositor, with Shonda Hunt | TVAP EP31
https://youtu.be/Ggz82uk6KxI
📣How I manage being a VFX artist and a mother of two - Rebecca Holdstock | TVAP EP41
https://youtu.be/D6zzhlay_Ac
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00:00:00 : Intro - what to expect
00:18:17 : The Role of a Creative Specialist at Foundry
00:20:06 : When you're too comfortable
00:24:00 : Freelancing "Year Zero"
00:27:01 : Having kids as a freelancer
00:31:01 : Burnout
00:34:52 : VFX Rate cards: methodology and controversy
00:43:41 : Black Lives Matter and Racism in the Industry
00:54:25 : Projects most proud of
Chapters by [Chaptered.app](https://Chaptered.app)
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my time at The Foundry I think was I would call it like an apprenticeship phase for me where I was learning on the job and I was exposed to so much and you know I I've I've I I was able to travel to Russia to Israel to you know like islands in the Philippines um and I I've never like every now and then I'll look back at pictures and I'll be like man that's that's a little kid from South East London you know they're just kind of figured it out and got got a good break you know I've got this thing when you're too comfortable it's time for a change one of the beautiful things about Freelancers that I don't get that Comfort anymore I don't get I don't I don't relax I don't kind of get too comfortable with any one company it's always you know go go go in in this industry knowing your value is caramel to um not being taken being exploited or taken advantage of one thing with freelancing I'll say is that year zero like I call it year zero but the first year of freelancing is always the scariest because you don't actually know hey how much you're going to make and B is it going to be consistent work or you can have enough money to like pay you know regular bills and stuff like that so welcome to the VFX status podcast this week we have Courtney price senior compositor and we're going to talk about his career which is quite long and varied and quite exciting so how you doing Courtney oh good howdy nice to meet you nice to uh you know get a chance to talk to you guys I've been a fan of your work for you for a while actually I've been seeing the work that you and coffee have been doing with this VFX artist podcast if it's great man and uh yeah need more of it more more kind of content like this is uh needed so you guys doing a service I personally wish there was something like this around when I was first getting started into the industry so what actually I suppose it was FX PhD but you know probably a bit more localized um FHP I remember has especially back in the day um it really had that tight-knit Community I feel like it's still got good content but it's not got that type community that you used to have I think everyone's sort of moved on to social media and things so we're trying to hopefully get a bit of that so fine again so tell us a bit about yourself what are you doing now what are you up to um at the moment freelancing um I've been pretty much since I left the founder I've been freelancing so that's been a lot of bread and butter I am trying out some other Ventures where you know I did a bit of creative Direction kind of trying to um get some ideas off the ground creating pitches trying to find new new markets to kind of pitch skills that can be you know branding and marketing that sort of stuff too but I mean to be honest with you that's kind of like a secondary side uh kind of endeavor that I do in between here in my regular day job and you know the other bits and pieces so it's not my it's like my full-time job is just freelance composite so I'm a new artist and uh yeah I'm just jacking up um when I say just um that's kind of like the thing that I've been doing for majority that's the that's the most um not consistent but the most that's kind of like the Baseline of me if that makes sense as I'm getting into my later years um I'm trying to see what else I could do so at the moment yeah this is where this is what this is the bread and butter Okay cool so um so what's your background how did you get into the industry yeah so I went to University Hertfordshire uni um this was before they had any kind of like VFX programs and um I was there I'd done a media course so finally I mean I told this story um because I come out of college and the only thing that I've done in college I've done like business and you know the information technology and works also the only thing that I've done that actually kept my attention was media and I edited a music video and I was like raw I could do this for hours and not get bored and I was like right well career-wise I need to do a job where I'm not going to get bored or that you know want to you know just not pay attention to it so I went to University done at it course which was all very super technical and programming I'd go to this is fall asleep wake up fall back asleep again and it was all just like I can't do this for another four years so I changed into this media course and it was quite varied it was like quite early days in Society um we got to touch a bit of everything but music a bit of like flash a bit of um you know like after effects um Photoshop Dreamweaver editing DVD Wolverine so it was it kind of opened up my eyes to a lot of things so then from there um as towards us it got towards the end of that um course um they started saying oh you've got to go out to town and be a runner you've got going to London and be a runner to try and get into the industry and work your way up so the year before my final course summertime went into I found a um an internship in um Newman Street a company called TV set they were partnered with or they had two sister companies called Arena P3 and um it was called London London something London post or something like that but it changed the concrete like I bought a cool concrete later on that's cool for those of us the foreign for the lack of a better term it's kind of like a intern or a um uh kind of like a an entry point to I mean it's if if we're going to be brutally honest so let's just keep it funky and like um you're into like you're doing you're doing the the odd jobs you're doing the stuff that you know the the actual artists or the The Operators or the management don't want to do you know either the shopee you're making the tease your um you know I was a van driver so I was like taking DG beaters around to other companies um you know DVD duplications um posting delivering uh you know things that did you beat us and whatnot to other people Library login tapes um that sort of stuff so he wasn't an operator he wasn't actually an artist he wasn't actually getting on the kit but back then um there wasn't much desktop software available so these systems so this was like non-linear editing days where they had the big machines where it you know cut and paste and like you know that actually cut and edit like reels and stuff like that and then they had the tele sinis with the big machines with it flashed the light and you know it's just like kind of like massive like these are massive uh Suites that they're charging hundreds of pounds an hour for rental you know this is when you get the flame operators that were like the rock stars and you know you got a fancy Suite she got all the fancy stuff that people are getting for their lunches and whatnot and you know you get the drinks the alcohol they're working late for the night they're having all their parties and you know is that kind of um rock and roll era where you know there's a lot of stuff happened that you know yeah so like basically it was all a bit for me to kind of get my foot in the door I had to um yeah like a runner you just kind of just kind of hang around and Shadow and hopefully hope somebody would take you under their wing and actually kind of take you in as an apprentice and show you stuff so anyway I saw that side of the game um you know again media I started but this I started getting exposed to like my you know our grading was kind of like the first thing but I knew how to edit um through my course um grading Was A New Concept to me I thought that was interesting and then like the flame and the smoke operating was kind of like a bit of a mixture of the two um that was cool I was cool with Photoshop which was I would say is my entry point into actually compositing if if I'm honest and then like I go back finish my final year of University I've come um so now I've I'm I've got what I would consider a decent amount of skills because I'm using desktop software at home using the Adobe suite some you know I'm using like Sony Vegas and like things I'm putting together like product like the DVDs and stuff like that I'm putting together and I'm like right you know I can come back and I'd come back and be a runner again but that's not a career you know what I mean I don't want to be waiting on somebody to give me an opportunity to start you know and and then there's a whole kind of politics of it like oh he's been here for longer and he's favored or he's the son of such and such and you know it's just I I got disillusioned about it all so I kind of um you know one time one of my bosses you know what I don't want to get yeah it's a long story but bottom line I said you know what this isn't working for me I need to I need to actually get on with my career I can't be wasting time because I'm doing long long shifts and all that so um one of my friends that worked with me she went on to get a prod a job at us um a boutique company called big boy who's still around now and she said oh look there's a runner position for you here and this was when big boy was a small company probably about 10 20 people and um you know maybe even less than that probably about 10 people and they're in like basement of a agency called red brick road I came in done a trial give me the job and I would say because it was a small boutique company that's when I was doing a bit of everything I was in the v team in the machine room I was helping out with editing um you know logging clips and stuff like that um my uh one of my bosses Jim Allen um he was he was like the flame up the you know the suit of the rock star flame up at the company he was co-owner and um he kind of took a he he would show me little bits of flame and um I'll be like oh okay this is quite cool and obviously you know I basically like he ended up giving me a copy of shake um or at least given me a you know a copy of mistake on the machine that I used um to kind of do do bits and pieces for them like they're struggle and whatnot and that's when I started and then also that uh the Ron Brickman book Digital Arts and whatnot and um then in the FX PhD courses and through that that's pretty much how I started compositing that's when I first you know got it got my hands dirty started playing around with bits and pieces oh you got it there you go yeah yeah yeah so it's a digital capacity that's where it goes that's the Bible a sort of heads up we're going to do a book club um as a sort of extra thing so I might get you back on and talk okay yeah anyway it's been good it's been a while but yeah we'll be happy to you know talk about that again um and what else uh so I suppose from there um again you reach the ceiling or you reach a point where all right there's only three Suites in the company they've got three artists they free they get Freelancers in you're doing odds and sides you're staying back late to try and learn bits and pieces um also I had a training Pro uh uh DVD from Adobe no it was Apple at the time was it Apple yeah I think it was happening yeah yeah yeah um and it was and that was kind of like taking me through shape it was giving me a lot of fish like two two thousand early War fired just before they sold it like just before they canceled or killed the shake software and then they started to get into so I was probably like the year or two before that that that software got killed so we did the same thing we both learned shape just before they killed it right yeah exactly exactly so I mean the concepts were there The Core Concepts were there but I didn't really know any Shake artists like you know the commercials world where I kind of was you know cutting my teeth that was all flame up you know and smoke operators um so anyways uh okay then get off you know I'll get you know the solution for that company as well I'll find I'll then go and work at Deluxe digital London uh they give me a role as like um as a digital artist this time and instead of like being a runner I'm now because I'm obviously uh from a from a runner I kind of work my way up to an edit assistant and a comp with flame assistant and all that sort of stuff but um it I just wanted to be on the box I wanted to do the stuff all day long like that's what I wanted to do I didn't want to be you know getting pulled Here There and Everywhere to do other other people's um you know the other other songs that wasn't really as creative or was it the best use of my telephone my skills I think um so anyways did Deluxe digital London my boss rossburgh weather all um hired me uh gave me a roll of Duty artist there so working on film uh films now um I'm uh I'm using combustion I'm using um uh a bit of After Effects I'm using um what is it Flair is that what's it there was a um yeah they tried to make yeah flare that it was just a grumpy bit of flame yeah and they had a they had a um there was another grading version spot I don't know there was another elustra that's the word yeah industria so he was doing a bit of that but um and uh what else uh there was a bit of Cinema 4ds that it taught us 3D because some of the titles started getting into that sort of stuff learned about um uh Anna glyph uh 3D you know like the um the stereoscopic 3D about that whilst I was there and it and and so it got to the point when combustion was getting phased out wasn't getting updated one or two uh and we had to switch into a new software and that was when um we had hmm toxic nuke and I think there's a third one confusion Fusion that's it all three of them came in to kind of give us a demo and stuff like that and I think nuke was the one that I took the shine to because I knew a new shake and that was the one that I kind of picked up quite easily and I was like okay this all makes sense to me this is fairly familiar and um so then the the the you know I'm working at Deluxe digital London on these film titles and um then the I see the opportunity coming up for The Foundry as a you know creative specialists but if they wanted a list of skills and expertise you know they wanted to do most a little bit grading a bit there's a bit later and it's so wide that I thought you know what this is crazy but let me just take a punt anyways so I've gone in and I've met um well plus there is Paddy uh I forget his last name um but he was like the sales manager and you know because obviously during my career I've kind of absorbed and picked up loads of bits and pieces I don't know how to do it all but I've been exposed to a lot you know so I could take I I know I know I'm I was the one to figure out like the r3d pipeline at big boy because HD wasn't there and you know these the the clips were too big to um get taken into the Avid Suite so you know then there's the color spaces that come along with that and you know there's a whole technical kind of pipeline stuff that I had to kind of get up to speed with and I was quite aware of different parts of the production you know the interior production Pipeline and then I've got the film side of things as well so now I'm understanding you know scans and film Luts and deliveries and you know um and then read like you know sending things out to different regions and you know there's a whole bunch of stuff on there that I've absorbed so I've gone into the interview kind of blurted out you know I've you know blacked out a little bit I just started waffling as I'm probably doing now and um bottom line uh Patrick was like Paddy Patrick um he was like uh you know what you're the first guy that's coming that actually knows any of the stuff I was like wow okay um that's surprising to me uh so then you know second interview and he said you know what we like you I've got uh Matt Brady and as Parker came along they kind of um you know gave me a second interview um he gave me the lowdown of the Roll next year you know I was part of The Foundry and this was when they were in Leicester Square so at the top Communications building so this was after they bought Mari and that's another thing during whilst I was at Big Boy and the Lux I was very big on FX PhD so I saw all of The Foundry coverage that they were getting I saw when Jack Grizzly you know and and Bill Collins first talked about the Maori acquisition and that sort of playing software and I understood the concept of of texture and then you know Luke's obviously the bread and butter and I'm seeing all the developments with the camera tracking and the um there was there was It was kind of it was like a Geo Tracker but it was like it was one in between on 6.3 or 6.2 um I remember the demo with the fountain where they kind of like putting the cards in place and stuff like that it might have been um yeah anyways it was one of those Geo Point Cloud Builder nodes or whatever um and uh basically yeah I started at The Foundry and they were like look you know you know com you know like the industry you know the stuff but we'll teach you the software and pretty much and you know I was comfortable with it but I didn't know in and out there's a bunch of things I was new to um even especially like the CG side of things and um you know floating color space or floating floating uh floating Point uh you know data render the different color spaces that were baked into the and the viewer nuts versus the comps but you know there was a whole technical side of it that I wasn't really exposed to and they kind of yeah they kind of just even the 3D side of things like being able to project and you know manipulate 3D objects and you know there was a whole bunch of stuff that I wasn't exposed to so they were like they'll teach you all that and uh they took me on and pretty much since then I've not looked back I was there for like five years um traveled the world uh knit a whole bunch of different companies um like I think I joined about 6.2 6.3 and um yeah got it all the way up to Nuke 10 nuke Studio that was got released probably a year or two before um yeah and then so then Katana and flicks and all of that sort of stuff came along um even Modo whilst I was at the company so yeah uh and being a creative specialist is basically uh so you're kind of like a bridge between the consumer or the the end user and the the the dev team like the developers and the products um yeah the engineers so a lot of my role would be going on the road explaining to people how it works with the sales team and you know what new new tools and things we're working on stuff like that and in those meetings you've probably been in a couple of them yourself uh you'd get a bunch of feedback from other new parties that have been like well look we've been using this for so long this doesn't work and this doesn't work and you know you can you collate all this information you go back to the office and you have your meetings and you're like look this is this and this is what's needed but then obviously the The Foundry they report you know they had um uh they were brought up by Venture capitalists and they had these like lifespans off when they wanted to sell the company and you know they had their kind of priorities in terms of like the glossy stuff that would drive sales so there was always a battle well not a battle but it was kind of like a negotiation between what the end user wants and and and what would drive new customers so it's keeping the you know the two happy and um yeah so that was that was something that was always going and then you know the the we would get the beta testers for the new releases and with um we create content we'd show people trading materials we'd go on to these trade shows with um you know it was basically the face of the company uh that's us and our team uh that's how it was described and um yeah and and then when they got purchased the last time um again like I said a lot of things change and I started to like it I I felt that I'd reached a bit of a ceiling there as well I was comfortable and you know I've got this thing when you're too comfortable it's time for a change because you get well me personally I you know I'm liable to get complacent you know I'm liable to you know not cut not cut corners but just kind of get to um cozy and not not dry if not have the passion not have the kind of the um the yeah the drive to push further so uh I decided to go freelancing and one of the beautiful things about Freelancers is that I don't get that Comfort anymore I don't get I don't I don't lapse I don't kind of get too comfortable with anyone company it's always you know go go and you always on the and I actually think I work better under pressure of that so I think uh you know I I like being on I mean obviously there's a balance and being a freelancer I could take time out before I burn out you know so I can I can manage that myself but I do like the fact that I can you know I can kind of go into crunch mode and just get my head down get a task done or get a a project or a geek or a window done and then you know um go on to the next thing or take a bit of time out if I need it you know so yeah that's my career it's the journey I thought I'd look at my video Whole 30 minutes no that's cool that's cool so um okay so that was your first time freelancing you it was you it was a deep dive you'd not freelance before you'd always be no no yeah been always employed I mean I don't like to look freelancing Geeks for people outside of the industry so you know somebody wants to uh an intro Secrets made or somebody wants you know a DVD made or you know like I've done little bits and pieces outside of um outside of the industry but not a freelancer here's my card all that is you know give me a call I'll jump in the seat for uh but then I guess when you when you left found you you kind of knew everyone right like you knew all that yes absolutely that's that was that was uh that was one of the things that gave me confidence to jump out was the the network that I'd built up through working at The Foundry um like I said I I traveled to that probably about 30 different countries with them in London um with with seeing every not big Post House you met artists that then moved on to Super roles and head of Department roles and stuff like that so you kind of build these relationships and that Network definitely helped gave me confidence to go freelancing a matter of fact it was I'll get his name Pete husband at the Mill he was he was the one that gave me my first freelancer gig and then after that it was Electric Theater Collective that um how very I want to get Harry Jones and um James belch they give me my first kind of like gig after the mill when you know after that not not look back I know Pete and I worked with Pete yeah yeah solid guy man yeah definitely and I and one of the things I'll say is that with my career or my journey you know I I definitely don't forget those gestures or those P those people that have i in my mind they're taking a chance because I mean you know not to get too political but none of them know me from Adam and you know they they don't know whether I'm you know I can do the job or not you know I mean and yeah I can show them a show real world I could show but a lot of the time if if if um even though I can you know we can have these conversations about the thing what am I lack of the pressure what am I like on the day can I do I turn up and perform and you know anybody that's ever kind of given it a shot and said you know what he's all right I'll give it I've always remembered that because you know good good quite easily have not you know absolutely so how did you find going back into production after what five years of being a public manager so you know what um I mean it was daunting and Doug had been wrong there oh so one thing with freelancing I'll say is that year zero like I call it year zero but the first year of freelancing is always the scariest because you don't actually know a how much you're gonna make and B um uh like is it gonna be consistent work are you gonna have enough money to like pay you know irregular bills and stuff like that um so year zeros are scarious um but once you build up that buffer and the way I see it is that if you can get like four clients um four different if you could kind of figure out four different clients to give you at least two to three months work each per year you're good you're good and then you should be able to just rinse and repeat um and then hopefully next year you add another client so you know you can kind of what if you if you if ultimately if you've got a a kind of like a date of or like a um uh database or a Rolodex or whatever you want to call it of about eight different companies that would give you work and are happy to get you back in and do do a job if you can rotate around those those for a year you you you're good like you've got a steady income at that point um especially in in as a new car is certainly now kind of thing there's always work out there and and um so yeah I was it was intimidating and don't be wrong I wasn't like smashing it straight away I wasn't like a wizard all that I knew I knew a lot of things technically that a lot of people didn't know about the software um but uh in terms of actually doing the job and being like let's say you know painting paintwork like yeah are you a good painter has you how are you tracking like can you try to show up that you know there's always has been things that I've not that have taken time to get better at that has just been through the course of the freelancing um but uh like things like the VR one of the ocular no it's the Oculus no ocular no that was that was a stereoscopic one was the Via Cara there we go sorry Sakara before I left um that was like the new thing and because I was one of the people that helped you know get that developed and I understood it technically I was able to help out on a couple projects at the Mill for that like the VR when it's first stitching plates together and you know so forth yeah I was helping and then even at the the fat at the um Electric Theater I was working on stuff like that so there was things that I knew that was to my advantage but then the regular tips and tricks of everyday comping that's what I had to learn and how to get out to speed with so and you know I've never um I was never too uh shy to admit or kind of like just be like oh you know what I might be struggling here or what yeah sorry that took a bit longer than it should have I'll you know I'll pick it up next time and you know that sort of stuff so yeah it was it it's definitely it was definitely a learning process but I always believed in probably myself more so I always thought you know what if figure it out like you you'll figure it out kind of thing you know and I know you've got kids did you have kids when you started freelancing or was that no so my children are covered babies so they were born um so Kenya um my eldest she was born in 20 November 2019 um and uh Cisco he was born in a year and a year and a year like about a year and a half ago so um yeah that was so during that whole period of time I think it was like my mid-20s when I left we left Foundry um yeah I've been freelancing up until then that is you know I was able to do it quite easily but up until now this is when you know with the children now and you know juggling like it's less about trying to I don't know like I think my priorities have shifted a bit with with the children you know you know I think um I need to my aspirations are a bit different you know absolutely you just need to provide that stability and sometimes there's not that obsessive yes yes concrete Focus definitely and uh all those long hours and those things that you was willing to go above and beyond to do because you actually enjoy the job and you you know you're that all has to kind of become secondary now you know you kind of have to focus on yourself if and even the longevity of your career I always said to myself previously that this wasn't a career that I could do in my 50s or 60s um but now I think well when I say career I mean the artist like being on the machine um maybe something in the career yes in the industry yeah great you know I'd love to be able to take take a a less Hands-On role probably but I'd still want to be creative I wouldn't want to just be on spreadsheets and emails all day um but uh at the same time um I think with the children it's kind of like I I I can't be on the machine locked in a dark room for like till nine o'clock at night or any every other weekend you know what I mean that that when you get into the 50 or 40s 50s or 60s you kind of have to shift that focus a little bit so um I I but I think what's some of the changes that have happened recently um has has helped extend the longevity of the industry because people are talking more people are being a bit more open about you know um uh earnings and and what you should be earning and what and what um what isn't what isn't acceptable for a work-life balance what isn't um so so those things are coming to the Forefront and hopefully that will kind of keep Talent around for longer absolutely yeah and that's a really big uh a big point because you can't always just recycle the next batch of you know 19 year olds exactly 27 they're burnt out and then you start again yeah I mean if you want a professional industry you want to keep people going until you know in some people tell they retire yeah and especially when we did with the the amount of knowledge and experience you gather during that 10-year period you know that is yes I mean the stuff comes back as well doesn't it I mean like I found that as we move to 4K and bigger some of the proxy workflows that you used to have way back and Shake just the 2K that used to be a big thing and they kind of went away the machines got really powerful you're banging out HD in 2K you don't think about proxies anymore suddenly yeah you know some of that knowledge suddenly like makes like makes a comeback and it will make 100 back you know because the resolutions are always getting bigger and you're doing these big displays uh this is 4K crazy stadiums and yeah yeah that's exactly and and you know one of the things one of the things that has always kind of been a bit of a not a pain but it's been a bit I've always kind of acknowledged it and been and and felt that you know something that's not right is is seeing burnout like seeing colleagues that you know what damn talented damn skilled and they're just like you know you know what I can't you know I I can't do it or take your time out or I'm going to another industry and it's just like you know you guys are losing like quality guys Geniuses some of them have superintended I mean I I don't know if you ever met map really but he's now off working on like NASA stuff or like you know space stuff we're using the some of the Technologies from new like projections and and stitching uh images together like super you know higher quality images and building that topology of of some of these planets and you know it that's super intelligent people that you know if they're not valued or treasured or like you know kind of looked after they'll they'll take their skills and elsewhere you know so absolutely appreciate it and the other interesting thing I I thought was that when you do find that you can't stay late all the time you do start to really rethink your efficiency because one guy I worked with quite early on and he you know he had kids and he he came he'd come in early coming at eight and he worked till five and he'd leave at five like he had to leave at five because you know the nursery is fine you if you're yeah exactly and uh he got more done than most of the other companies right in that right he just he sells it out he just worked out the time there was no faction about once he put you know he was quite chatty and he could be very you know very um talkative yeah but when there was to do he put on his headphones and you know got on him and turn this around and it all just kind of get done so yeah that's not necessarily that you're working less sometimes you're doing you know yeah people just need to look at output and sometimes there was that focus on who's staying late you know maybe they're working harder but you know no he doesn't he doesn't yeah it doesn't equate um you know a lot we've all been there where um you know you've been hitting your head against a brick wall and the later you stay doesn't make that brick wall disappear you know like you kind of need to sleep on it you might need to go away and come back you know it might need to scrap everything you've done and start again you know it's um uh the idea of just doing more for longer just no it's not not it's not in the creative Industries I don't think that is the pre what records it of being good in it you know but it it there was a culture where that was the norm you know and I'm glad that a lot of people are kind of and it might be just because of our like my peer group and the age that I'm at now a lot of people do have children that I'm noticing that they're just you know they're cutting it and just saying look I've got to go um that are kind of forcing that change but um yeah I'm glad that other people are noticing it taking note and actually taking action because uh it can it can be an exploitive industry you know it can be I I'm not gonna you know say it's it's it's it's it's you know it's all roses or it's all bad but um there's definitely the the uh it's like a lot of the um we us us we are kind of at the bottom of the rung and uh we do get a short stick a lot of time and a lot of pressures do fall on our shoulders and that's not just like new car is sort of good producers as well and and Runners and you know whatever everybody else on the ground like doing the work like a 3D artist CG artist whatever it might be um and that isn't always fair you know and um you know it kind of need to start taking a bit of work out a video you know absolutely and you you work together putting array cards together yeah yeah just for this idea um speaking to back to you and one of the interesting most interesting things I heard about is credit card and we'll post a link but was half the people that looked at it were like this is ridiculous these rates are way too high I've never earned that much in my life and the other half were like this is so low I would never work I would never accept to rate this bad yeah yeah so but you see that's I think I think that's the beauty of it like because it gets the discussion going even if even if like because we've done our research we got our data um and we sifted it through I actually you know I sifted it through and kind of like pulled pulled it aside and we got our averages our mean median and that our mediums of of uh you know of of of the higher low and mid-ranges and stuff like that and um and and and then we broke him up well so we had different disciplines originally but if we found out it was like you know might be 10 pound 20 pound difference between them and this is specifically around the freelancer because we've done the salary one afterwards um the freelancer one was first um simply because the the PO being on paye there's a bunch of benefits that you get so you get your sick days you get your whole you know you get your holidays you get you get um uh the other benefits within the work yeah you get that that that kind of compensate so it's never a like for like you know a lot of people just kind a multiplier of Freelancers salary and say oh it should be that as a salary it doesn't quite work like that because even as a freelancer your work's not guaranteed for the whole year even on the basic level you know absolutely and for anyone outside the UK pay is pay as you earn yes pay your tax as you get your paycheck exactly so you get your teeth and then you pay all the tax in one big fat lump that's right that's right so yeah as a freelancer you got your your income tax your corporation tax you've got your your um and and your National Insurance if depending on your account and you can be a below the threshold um but that's all technical so yeah but the point is that you have to kind of manage your stuff yourself um so yeah there's there's there's there's it wasn't it wasn't just quite a simple case of just getting salary numbers and dividing it to get a day rate for a freelancer or it was a case of getting a Freelancers rate and multiplying it to get a a a a POA salary so we had to separate them but the the the the main the main thing about it was that the data that we came up with whether it was right or wrong it would at least get the conversation going and again it's not like it's you know the tablet Moses's tablets that are etched in stone we can develop it and we can update it we there's there's things like inflation you know there's a there's a rate of inflation that we need to account for year and year um there's a whole there's a whole bunch of other factors even if you wanted to just get pulled more people into that uh data pool as long as we're kind of um the the people are aware of it and they have a starting point have a base line to at least start the negotiation when they go into these um these the these meetings because again you know a lot of the time I was guessing what I was worth you know I don't know what the man sitting next to me or the man over there you know sometimes we might have conversations depending on how close we are to our to your peers but it's not something that we just freely are aware of or offer up and um I think in this industry knowing your value is kind of like Paramount to um not being taken being exploited or taking advantage of and you've got to separated from ego both like inflated ego and even often that sort of imposter syndrome as well you've just gotta kind of go like this is the this is the rate you've got to think of yourself the same as your Plum or your electrician your plumber exactly it doesn't go you know am I the best plumber in the world you know they're just like there you go in your sink I'm charging you this much for it exactly so if I can do it I'm going to charge you this rate and if I can't do it then I'm not qualified to do it so yeah yeah exactly and there's and and there's so many other Industries a that that information is widely known or um is is is kind of like um that is just standardized you know and uh there's there I think I think we was very shy or we was kind of um conditioned to make have it as a bit of a taboo to talk about and and not and and and not you know kind of yeah discuss or have on the table and and I think that was something there's a first point of call needed to kind of get addressed and at least kind of you know at least have something out there and it's not and to be honest with you you know as I've just explained it's not really about me um it's about the 19 18 year old version of me getting in the industry because those are the guys that end up having to do the the menial tasks for that five years they didn't you know only then get a break and you know then there's still minimal kind of increments and they're at a company hoping that they're getting to get pay rise and you know they they need to know what they're they're worth in this industry before they get into it you know so um even though they've got the mid and the senior plus rates of the people above the senior level rates I think it's more important for juniors and and mids uh you know just as long as you know that they're this is what your your you you should feel confident asking this as a starting point and um yeah there's and and if you know point to this like blame us or blame blame beta or whatever if you feel if if you get too much pushback and just say well look this is what they've kind of put out it and we could discuss it and and we can update it and you know it will be for anybody to come to the table and have a discussion with us but this is that's that's the information that we pulled together and extracted yeah because employees aren't putting this information they're advertising roles and you almost never see a salary put next to it which I think is is kind of wrong it's almost just come in there and say you know how much do you want yeah basically you know you don't know what to say yeah uh and and it can be quite an intimidating conversation to have definitely um especially as you start to sort of you know your it and it can often more likely reflect your own sort of self-esteem or background more than your actual skill set exactly so having that bit of knowledge means you can actually make rational you know you can actually tell say say things that uh that make sense that affect that's it that's it yeah and and another thing I'd point out as well is that it's it's um when it comes down to your rates or your salary or or how much money you're gonna be able to take home at the end of the day that isn't there's no I mean there is politics behind it but that is kind of like than equalizer for all so whether I'm whether I'm a mother a returning to work mother whether I'm you know uh from a underprivileged background whether I'm um you know just fresh out of University or whether whether whether I'm transitioning from a uh you know another adjacent industry or whatever um at least I know that everybody should be getting this as a base rate or as a base and and I think once you kind of address that then that exploit that exploit that that room for exploitation kind of gets minimalized like there's no there's less um I mean obviously there's going to be other things around it there's other there's other there's other um yeah like you know issues around employment and being able to get a good uh opportunity in industry and you know progression routes and so forth but there's a baseline if I'm at least let me know what I'm worth when I wake it up in the morning and go to work everything else you know comes secondary but as a as a as a baseline if I'm gonna turn up for you um at least let me know that I'm getting at least a fair a fair a fair pay for that um and then you know we could discuss the other issues afterwards I saw you as well on a talk um just uh during the the when black lives matter was taking off and Foundry could talk together and brought some artists Inc discussion issues as that were very in our industry um so as obviously it kicked off a bunch of discussions that weren't limited to the specific case of police brutality and yeah so I wanted to know um what kind of issues you might have felt were relevant I mean obviously people can go to the full discussion for together yeah exactly what sort of thing said I mean um is is less I mean don't get me wrong there's there's um There's issues Within our industry um definitely um I mean if anybody working at any one of these companies um you'd have to ask yourself how many um black uh members the senior members of Staff do you have that aren't in like HR or accounting or something like that let's say let's say creative directors or or um you know like uh CEOs or operating officers or whatever it might be like how many of those people of color or or varied backgrounds do you see and and and the fact is that there's a glass ceiling for um Us in in within this industry and then not but but it's not limited to this industry it's actually a systemic thing there's a there's a Supremacy the ruling um kind of status quo that that keeps prevents that kind of progression or that equal because we're not we're not all born with equal circumstances and and it's no it's no secret that um black people or like you know people like myself have come from uh probably uh lower socioeconomic background than than others and my entry into this industry is going to be very different to to somebody else's you know like I said I've witnessed a lot of the nepotism and um the the the the the the the the preference preferential treatment and stuff like that I've you know I witnessed it and this is a thing that as you know as a whole um we've we've become accustomed to and again it's not it's not right but we've kind of accepted it or like that on on the surface they've always been accepted as the norm and it's just oh it is what it is and to be honest like a lot of my peers um black people of my skill level and uh uh uh ability in the industry are freelancing and I don't think that's a I don't think that's a a coincidence I think there's a lot of people that felt like me where there was only so much progression available to us within a company and we've kind of you know taken our skills just to the highest bidder kind of thing because at the end of the day I I personally don't want to have to deal with the internal politics I just want to come in do my work get a good good Fair pay for it and then go home and then you know deal with you know the the things that are more important creative and Technical aspects are enough to occupy your mind you don't need yes Politics as well exactly exactly and um all the microaggressors and everything that you see on a day-to-day I mean it's just you you know you just don't um it's it's extra you know what I mean as a it's it's other it's it's it's yeah and and what what is it a microaggression all right let's say something a viral moment let's say um something happens uh a viral moment happens let's say the George Floyd incident or whatever you in that in you being the one black person in that room of 10 people or whatever you are now seen you are now the spokesperson for that issue or the person that needs to articulate and defend or um even you know uh be able to have a debate let's say against the use of the word black lives matter you know those I'm sure there's a bunch of people that have had those conversations in the offices and or why diversity and inclusion is important or um you know you could be uh I mean you know you can get down to the trivial stuff where um you know your your you and your peer are working the same job one gets a bonus this year and the other one oh there's a few issues this that and the third you didn't get this or you could be you know of instances where you know you you might be talking to women or like having a conversation with a woman and now you're flirting or somebody sees someone for ah he's a ladies man and it's like actually though I was having a conversation on people like um or you know there could be uh things like like let's say for example um music tastes you know you get you you something a song gets played and there's a whole bunch of stuff in there that might make you cringe as a black person but Tom over there loves it because he's into you know whatever's whatever's popular at the moment and it's just like oh you know like jokes like it could be a joke that's sort of jokes all kinds of it because it doesn't when we say microaggressions it doesn't even because on a women level um you know it could be something like oh your hair looks nice today or like let me touch your hair like this is interesting I haven't seen this or you know tell me about it or or even um oh I've got I've got black friends or you know that and then trying to or like oh what's that yeah exactly push it back all of that sort of stuff what are you eating today oh that looks interesting or that's all that smells that all those kind of things are just micro aggressions that you kind of have to deal with and almost ignore on a day-to-day like and it could be as trivial as it could be as trivial as um yeah like I I I I watched uh you know the latest the the latest uh Black Panther filming from coming to the office doing what kind of whatever to the one black person in the office or um it could be as serious as you know like oh go and do this or go and do that for me or you know because you you and I'm pointing to you out of a room full of 10 people or this is your fault kind of thing uh and everybody else has you know made the same or like there's other people that made mistake that's all that's microaggressive I sometimes think that the best way people could avoid doing that sort of thing without thinking politically is simply just just imagine just just in your head imagine there's okay there's only one black person in this office and everyone else is white but just imagine for a second before you speak just imagine that you're the only white person yes everyone is black yes and now think would I say this thing would I accept this gag would I you know do this gesture exactly in that situation and if you wouldn't then just don't do it and to be honest with you that is the thing is that the empathy is is the it's the empathy being able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and not everybody else has not everybody has that you'd be surprised like I can I can hear something and be like oh that's that's a shame that's sad or oh that that's unfair you shouldn't do this you shouldn't do that but actually to put myself in those shoes and be like you know what that is that's a tough road like that's unfair or I'm gonna speak up for it because all right let's take another example I've had to work on projects where in uh like an Asian project a Chinese um or Asian project East Asian uh project and um for one of the markets no it was a South African project but for the for the market that was going to Asia they had to swap the characters from um the swap the black characters for blonde White characters okay so you have to do the project twice and this this is a thing that happens right now as me as an artist I'm looking at this thinking but why maybe this is the problem that you you don't push back and you keep on going and you keep on doing these things and and and reinforcing The Stereotype that why it's all right and these mixed race black people aren't you know I I get I get I mean I I'm half Iranian so I get although I've never had anyone be racist to me and I think having a name like Daniel Miller rather than like Mahmoud or something right a lot easier okay I do have that understanding of the content itself you know sometimes you're working on a thing and and the portrayal of Middle Eastern people in February oh man um people will talk about and they'll be raving about like 300 or um you know even even those old Rambo films and those that whole era of those Army films like uh Indiana Jones and all of that where you know they had all the right the Middle Eastern people would uh it was all political it's all very yeah there's a really good documentary no one's interested in that particular angle is called real bad Arabs right there you go I'd recommend it it's a book and there's a documentary it's worth worth checking out and there's some of the connections involving that it's quite fascinating 100 and and bottom line it all comes down to a a a a a white status quo a white supremacy where they they are the heroes or the the you know the the um I think it was protagonist but they are the heroes of the story and you and everybody else is othered and this is so it's been so tightly woven into society and the industry and the fabric of everything that it's you know we can have these discussions but it's not and it's not going to change overnight and it's probably not going to change in my lifetime but one thing that I do I am happy about is that the 2020 black lives matter George Floyd incident has got the topic on has has made the topic for brought it to the Forefront already my children are watching more diverse programs that I was afforded when I was a child like all of our media magazines um all the way all the all the music the pop music all the all the um everything in this country was was was very like one way you know it wasn't it wasn't very mixed I was you know and I have I could see a shift in that already with the stuff that my children are watching or not and and and also the amount of people that showed up or at least were letting their voices be heard and that not from our community like not from black people or like just around that were saying you know what this has been going for too long and it's we've noticed it and it's not right and we need to start making steps to to make it better or more equal you know that has created a change or a tide and I love it and I think the the future it might not be something that I'll see but it I'd like to know I'd like to know that it's been put on the right course or at least the you know steps are being made that's good I'm glad we got we took the we finished on a sort of positive note and I'm hoping that I mean there may be a backlash but I'm hoping that you know things are going to keep moving yeah exactly so with you as in your and you'll vote what's have been the most sort of what other products you're the most proud of wow yeah no there's a bit of few man um oh there's been a few I mean I like I've always because one of one of the one of the goals that I set out with um like when I first got into the industry like I'm talking about the teenager there's that worried my name on a film credit so I'll be honest with you whenever I get a credit on a roll or whatever I do you know I do I do take a bit of pride in that um I think the film that I've done I worked on last year called um no way out with a unit um there's a Netflix film I was quite proud because that was quite heavy CG like confidence quite technical it's quite yeah it's quite difficult but I worked with a really good team and I was quite proud of that work um environments creatures creatures creature environment um uh there's a couple props on the set um it was it was just but the thing of the beauty of it was that it was shot really well and this is the thing that I find to really kind of be the best version of yourself like you kind of need to be given the best conditions and tools to be able to work you know we're lucky we're like compositing is like being a chef right yes if all you've got is the expired stuff from yesterday you know you can be the best chef but that's what you've got exactly exactly nice if you're a bad Chef you kind of ruin it whatever you get but if you're unconscious and you get quality ingredients yes yeah exactly and and the end result is you know it's going to be um and it's rewarding it's rewarding I remember there was one um kind of uh his FKA tweaks campaign that I worked on and this was over Christmas period um I was freelancing and again because I was freelancing and and I wasn't I took time off of work I was like going in on weekends and stuff like that his commercials project and um it was hard like the work was tough um but you know one like in the new year um one day I'm coming out of Oxford Circus and obviously the advert playing on a big on a big billboard or whatever um on on uh in Oxford Circle so I'm like damn that's quite cool you know like I worked on that so that's my stuff um there's been a couple wins like in terms of fires that I've helped to put out and the end results come out good um and I've had to kind of really be a bit you know creative with that and um classic freelancer thing being yeah being a firefighter oh yeah yeah yeah definitely again it's one of those temps if you're not familiar with it it basically means we're calling someone because we know they're good because the project is in a bad situation that's the the fire and they all called In Like The Wolf Man stuff out what did you say yeah yeah that's true um yeah that exactly I I there's been a couple um scenarios like that that have been a bit rewarding and um I mean this is funny because I never I never really get a chance to dwell on it I mean I I'll be honest so obviously creatively there's there's things that I'm proud of but in terms of just the journey and I and and and out of all everything like I really my time at The Foundry I think was I would call it like an apprenticeship phase for me where I was learning on the job and I was exposed to so much and you know I I've I've I I was able to travel to Russia to Israel to you know like islands in the Philippines um and I I've never like every now and then I'll look back at pictures and I'll be like man that's that's a little kid from Southeast London you know they're just kind of figured it out and got got a good break and he's you know he's got all of these memories to kind of share with his children when he's when he's older and um you know and and and I you know I definitely thank The Foundry I mean even Japan and Korea and stuff like that like I've had some great great memories that I can you know sit back and you know when I'm in my rocking chair just like oh yeah yeah yeah I remember seeing you on those all those videos we're gonna to go down remember the name of those all the little presentations okay there's the big events you know in uh Leicester Square yeah launches yeah no it's been I've been a long journey man been a long journey but it's been fun you missed that they're standing up on stage they're sort of doing that yes and no um I mean yes as in the adventure and the the nerves because again like I was saying with the whole pressure idea um there's there's a there's there's an element of adrenaline yeah that's probably the best word of of describing it as an element of the adrenaline in life Jesus but either you you know you go into it and you kind of almost just just just go on autopilot and you don't really you only really kind of take it in when the adrenaline goes you're like oh Jesus that was a that was room for the 500 people or whatever it might have been that was all you know they all kind of clapped to the end of it and it's quite a nice rewarding feeling but um so I've missed that buzz um and obviously the traveling and stuff like that but there was always a creative um void like it wasn't it wasn't creative enough for me it was very technical and the people that I was talking to only wanted solutions to certain problems um it wasn't a case of um oh I've created this beautiful thing or I've created this this magical world or I've put my touch on XYZ you know that's a that's that's kind of what was a bit missing from that aspect of the industry or that aspect of the role I should say yeah I do that people and I do like talking I do like kind of like that was that's that's you know it's it's a it's a it's a fine line because you know sometimes I'd like to be locked in a room but sometimes I'll do like the interaction and uh you know yeah I think we all need a balance I mean we all need that that sort of connection of but we're in this industry to do creative work and produce nothing but sometimes it's so good to just talk about it yeah yeah yeah exactly you're just socialize I mean it's um because I'm working remotely at the moment but it's been uh there's there's a couple drinks coming up over Christmas and I've always it's been tough with the children like getting out and stuff but um I've got to make an effort to kind of see you know kind of get get back into the mix of things and just at least you know to see some see some faces man and just shoot you know shoot the shooter Breeze yeah that's that's cool yeah definitely when you're in town yeah no I've been more happy yeah it'll be good be good cool man well I think we've kind of gone through like all the things we wanted to cover uh but I guess might but we always like to end with is say you've got that that young person who I mean obviously it's in 2022 so things are a little bit different but you've got that kid who's just like you 19 years old what do you say to them as their advice if they're interested in the effects um yeah I the the thing the the the biggest change or the biggest opportunity I would say at the moment is being able to do more of your own back and not kind of wait for the opportunity because I was very reliant on that and I think in this day and age whether it's just get downloaded sorry downloading the free software and going on YouTube teaching yourself there's so much resources and things um you know get familiar become get skillful and then also get to the point where you you can skip the runner stage so like I I think it's a bit of a um I don't know I'm not I I in this day and age I personally think that job and this is not to devalue anybody that's doing it at the moment I don't want to kind of you know speak down on it but I think it's it's a bit redundant I think if you've got if you're a skilled if you've come out of University and you've you've spent money and time learning skills um being the person that goes to get the lunch or the tea and you know the petty cash and all those kinds of things that's not best use of your skills it's not about best use for your time um I know a bunch of kids that get the opportunity at 19 80 like fresh out of University to get on the machine and they're damn good like they're they're super talented and and to think that they not be utilized properly is just a waste of you know it's not it's not it's not a really good use of resources so I I would always say get skilled get skillful get a done teach yourself be self um Reliant and get them to get get um I mean the freelancing thing's tough but if you can get a mentor or somebody that can vouch for you it doesn't have to be tough because there's a lot of work out there there's a lot of work out there so maybe you need to go on LinkedIn find to find somebody that's you know open to talk to you and you know could build a rapport with someone and then they might be able to recommend you if you're of a standard or if you're you know or even just get you up to a standard um I think I think that people being more accessible now is probably the the best resource that you could have at the moment and uh LinkedIn yeah LinkedIn I think is great I think it's a great resource don't don't sleep on it[Music] um yeah awesome man well thank you so much for um coming on the podcast I'm glad you finally got it together yeah no it's been uh yeah we'll definitely get you back uh yeah books and and catch up with uh what you've been up to sure sure I've been more happy to man I mean I appreciate it and uh you guys like I said you're doing great work I love this uh platform that you guys are doing and um keep it up man and uh you know Kofi as well like send the similar love to him and you guys just keep on plugging away I know you I've definitely watched some of your uh some of your your shows whilst I'll be working and uh it's super entertaining thanks Courtney and that's a good like sick way to say everyone is watching you've got this far you know like subscribe share tell people about it we're trying to grow it if we can grow it we can keep doing it and that's what we want so uh thank you so much nope thank you Daniel appreciate you man and uh yeah we'll we'll be in touch I'm sure[Music]